SikTT

refined styling.... .. LS yes.. IS-F???? I will leave that alone.

and too bad you didn't know me cause I had an 04 6spd w/88k miles not one single problem.

350ripper

man, i bet those people who just bought a 335i are PISSED!

newr

It’s beyond comical that people brake down features and options of 2 cars made by 2 different manufactures and compare to see which one is a cheaper. This is no difference than comparing price of an apple vs price of an orange. It makes more sense and easier to compare the IS vs ISF or 3 vs M3. It does not make any sense to compare IS vs 3 and IS-F vs M3 based on pricing alone. Both cars are so different in many ways. One has features and technology that the other does not. If people really have to break it down and put a price to it which is impossible, why not break it down all the way and see if we can put price to it and compare.

One offers a traditional but advance automatic (w/tc) only and one offers a manual gear box and a DCT as an option. DCT is not the same as the auto w/tc. Both are used to transfer power to the wheels but designed and operated differently. You compare auto w/tc to another auto w/tc, DCT with DGS not DCT with auto.

Brake Caliber: 4-pot must cost more than 1-pot right? How’s about # airbags. One with more airbags must cost more? There gotta be a price difference there. What about adjustable seats? One with more adjustable features must cost more since it has more motors and electronic right? Tires: if the tires are not the same, we must also consider the price difference. Common now! This is getting silly and the list goes on. Have we considered cost to own? Resale value? Cost to maintain? ($0 for the BMW first 4/5yrs) and etc…

Even if in the end, one was proven to be cheaper… so what? The 3 series are generally more expensive than the IS, yet outsold the IS 3 to 1 and that speaks volume. When people have to chose between 2 cars in the same class, most of the time the little price difference rarely is the factor in the decision making.

spwolf

Wait, doesnt IS-F already have something like EDC standard? Sport button changes: Sterring, gas pedal, brake bedal, AT, damper settings. So its even more features standard compared to M3.

p.s. newr - you are right but at the same time it is BMW playing the game, not us.

and also, I wonder what the weight of M3 will be with all the features included. I would suppose that difference in weight at the end will be 50lbs for top models.

seanyepez

Yes, I think it is overpriced compared to the M3. I was hoping that Lexus would undercut BMW significantly. Also, the M3 includes service for 4 years as well including oil changes, brakes, and inspections.

However, the Lexus will be more heavily discounted than the M3 since Lexus cars are generally more packed with profit and dealers are more willing to negotiate on them. I just got an IS250 for a family member for over a thousand dollars below invoice. We were shopping the IS250 against the 328i and found that the Lexus was the better deal once you factored in the cost of all the options. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if IS-F's sell for invoice or close to invoice in a year or so. I have never been able to get that great of a deal on a BMW (at least in this area).

seanyepez

Options should be optional.

Both cars are very heavy now. That doesn't mean that you should make them even heavier by making them fully loaded by default. I may be different than most customers, but I would rather sacrifice power seats and upgraded stereos in favor of a lighter car. My 2004 M3 has only leather and upgraded headlights. Those are the only two options, and it weighs about 100 pounds less than a fully loaded car. I am a driving instructor and club racer (both in karts and in cars). While I don't drive my M3 on the track regularly, I do appreciate what less weight can do for handling, braking, and acceleration.

My GX470, on the other hand, is fully loaded. I can appreciate power seats, a DVD system, and a great sound system in a family cruiser. However, I fail to see the need for all the options I wouldn't use on a car like an M3. After all, I'm the only driver, so I only need to set the seats once, and I don't care enough about sound quality to get an upgraded stereo. I'd rather listen to the engine.

Also, I think it's pretty clear that the M3 is faster regardless of whether it has a DCT or not. At least a manual transmission is available. I love the feel of rowing my own gears and executing perfect, rev-matched downshifts. There's something to be said for performance, but in a street car, often tactile feel is more important than straight numbers.

I was a big fan of the IS-F until I heard about the actual performance numbers it's putting out and the pricing compared to the E92 M3.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

IS-F comes with either pilot PS2s or RE050 pole positions as OEM, BMW probably gives you some junk continental

M3 Sedan + Premium + 19" + Metallic Paint + DCT
$54575k + $1900 + $1200 + $500 + $2700 = $60875 ($62175 if gas guzzler tax occurs, add $2700 for coupe)

IS-F:
$56k

or what I'd buy if I had the money:

M3 from above + Nav + Premium Sound
$60875 + $3250 + $1900 = $66025 ($67325 if gas guzzler tax occurs, add $2700 for coupe)

ISF + Nav/ML:
$56k + $3990 = $60k

The above are all specced to get similar features. Sorry fully loaded GTR is $2300 more for the M3 coupe i'd like, 5000 more for M3 sedan id like. Doesnt seem so cheap now does it

what is there to be disappointed about, both Road and Track tests:

M3:
0-60: 4.1
1/4 mile: 12.5 @ 114.8 mph
lateral: .98
slalom: 71.4 mph
60-0: 112

IS-F
0-60: 4.3
1/4 mile: 12.8 @ 114 mph
lateral: .91
slalom 71.2 mph
60-0: 120

IS-F weighs more obviously, M3 woudl get similar numbers if it had a couple hundred more pounds

gengar

Then why on earth are you buying in the luxury segment?

LexFather

Doubt it, the M3 always comes last. Besides with a couple mods the 335 is just as fast if not faster.

newr

maybe because even with the junk Continental, a slow shifting artificially inducing technologically-inferior manual gear box, a smaller V8 with less tq, a 1-pot brake caliper yet the M3 is still faster and stop quicker?

Based on the list of "similar" options, throw in the DCT which is about 0.2s faster than the manual to 62mph/100kmh, some good pilot PS2s or RE050 pole positions tires and the time difference could be even worse. Remember, M3's are not really built for straight line speed.

Don't get me wrong, both are fast cars though.

LexFather

^^^ I need to see both raced or compared with the same drivers/techniques/temperatures etc to make a fair assesment of who is "faster".

Both are a tick here and there within one another.

seanyepez

This is funny. Usually, I'm on the Lexus side of things when I defend the IS-F from misinformation on M3 forums. However, I find myself taking BMW's side now.

First, the performance figures you have quoted are for a 6-speed manual gearbox M3. The DCT M3 is even faster. Specifically, the DCT M3 is 0.2 second faster to 60 and faster through the 1/4 both in elapsed time and MPH due to closer gearing and faster shifting.

In addition, you did not factor in the cost of maintenance into the price comparison. BMW's maintenance is factored into its base price, whereas Lexus does not include such a program. At my Lexus dealer, oil changes are $150. (I think this is ridiculously expensive, but unless you take it to Jiffy Lube or someone without specific expertise working on IS-F's, that's what you pay). 15,000- and 30,000-mile services are even more, and brakes are not included. BMW pays for brakes and all services for 50,000 miles. I think that's worth at least a thousand dollars.

You are correct about factoring in the gas guzzler tax, though. We are left with the cars within a couple thousand dollars of each other. Both cars are in the $60,000 price range. I feel that a couple thousand dollars (specifically $2,000 or $3,000 between an M3 sedan and an IS-F sedan) is not a huge difference. Therefore, given relatively equal prices, I think I'd take the car that I'd rather drive. Clearly, we may disagree in this area, but I would certainly take an E92 M3 over an IS-F at the point where the price difference is negligible.

Finally, you state that "BMW probably gives you some junk continental" with the M3. This is in fact not true at all.

BMW worked closely with Michelin to develop a specific model of PS2 tire designed for the M3 application taking into consideration its suspension rates, geometry, and overall weight. The M3's tires are of more neutral sizing (245's in the front and 265's in the rear). That's why it pulls 0.98g on the skidpad. The IS-F's front tires (which are 225's) give up much earlier than the M3's since it's a heavier car with narrower tires (hence its 0.91g rating).

There is no doubt that both are excellent cars. I thought Lexus could have really undercut BMW on this product. However, BMW was very aggressive with its pricing on the M3 considering the exchange rates at the current moment. I thought the M3 was going to start at over $60,000. I think that Lexus has no business setting the base price of the IS-F, a new market entrant, higher than BMW is charging for the M3, the proven champion in this field.

However, Lexus really priced its way to success with the IS250. As I said earlier, I got one for my grandmother for over a thousand dollars below invoice. The comparable 328i (with leather, heated seats, HID lights, etc.) would have been about $8,000 more!

starfree

IMO, it is too early to be disppointed. Check the temperature difference between the tests. Due to the significant temperature discrepancy, there should exist roughly 4-5% in-cylinder charging efficiency change (therefore 4-5% power difference), based on simple thermodynamic calculations-I am a mechnical engineer.

I am not trying to alledge IS-F should be a faster car than M3. What I am trying to say is that head to head comparison test should be done before making a final judgement.

LH1

It's too bad Lexus couldn't keep the weight down to 3500-3600 lbs. I'm sure they could've but it would be more expensive.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

And if Lexus had put 450 hp under the hood, none of this would even be a discussion. But they didn't. So we have two very close competitors, and a clear winner. C63 AMG. HP rules.