RR Racing Ultimate Steering Response System (USRS) limited time $20 discount
#61
Any performance oriented car for the street will have some inner tire wear simply due to the requirement of compliance. All BMW, MBZ, etc do this as they're also designed to have flexible suspension under load. BMW, MBZ uses thrust arms instead of control arm bushings but same concept.
But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.
Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.
But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.
Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.
#65
Sponsor
iTrader: (1)
Any performance oriented car for the street will have some inner tire wear simply due to the requirement of compliance. All BMW, MBZ, etc do this as they're also designed to have flexible suspension under load. BMW, MBZ uses thrust arms instead of control arm bushings but same concept.
But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.
Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.
But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.
Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.
Im sorry, but our product under absolutely no conditions will cause any instability, mid corner or anywhere. The stock LCA bushing is a complete piece of crap, and making it 20pct stiffer doesn’t make it any less crappy.
Our USRS bushings are more expensive because we billet machine our housings from 6061T6. We don’t just press stiffer bushings into a stock core extruded aluminum housing. The issue with stock bushings is not only the lateral movement, but significant axial movement as well, which we eliminate by preloading the bushing with a thrust plate.
Axial movement if the control arm during braking is what causes instability in the first place! When the control arm moves with respect to the chassis, toe changes (actually the front wheels toe OUT), what do you think that does for stability?
Rafi
Last edited by RRRacing; 09-06-18 at 03:47 AM.
The following users liked this post:
highrev6 (09-06-18)
#66
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Thanks Rafi for posting Simons response. I was a little tied up yesterday evening and couldn't get around to posting the code. I appreciate the discount code provided but like always, we want more but I am thankful for something. I'll make sure to run the idea past you guys in the future prior to getting peoples hopes up. I thought 25+ interested would of turned out to be a good group buy for you and would have enticed you to have a good group buy discount given that we surpassed last years group buy numbers. All in all, always happy to support your research and innovation. Thanks again for the code!
#67
Driver
iTrader: (1)
Any performance oriented car for the street will have some inner tire wear simply due to the requirement of compliance. All BMW, MBZ, etc do this as they're also designed to have flexible suspension under load. BMW, MBZ uses thrust arms instead of control arm bushings but same concept.
But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.
Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.
But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.
Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.
2/3IS --> ISF bushings = 20% stiffer
ISF --> RCF/GSF bushings = +20% stiffer
So jumping from 2/3IS --> RCF/GSF should be more than 20%.
#68
Pole Position
#70
Im sorry, but our product under absolutely no conditions will cause any instability, mid corner or anywhere. The stock LCA bushing is a complete piece of crap, and making it 20pct stiffer doesn’t make it any less crappy.
Our USRS bushings are more expensive because we billet machine our housings from 6061T6. We don’t just press stiffer bushings into a stock core extruded aluminum housing. The issue with stock bushings is not only the lateral movement, but significant axial movement as well, which we eliminate by preloading the bushing with a thrust plate.
Axial movement if the control arm during braking is what causes instability in the first place! When the control arm moves with respect to the chassis, toe changes (actually the front wheels toe OUT), what do you think that does for stability?
Rafi
You are welcome to your opinion--it is afterall your product. I'm just stating mine, in general on stiffening things up too much.
I am well aware of dynamic toe change due to axial movement or movement in general due to bushings. In a race track setting, you'd be right. Full stiffness and less compliance is what you'd want. But most of us drive our cars on the street. If your wheel can't absorb energy mid-corner, traction is going to break sooner, possibly slowing you down further because now stability control detects wheel slips and hits the brakes and cuts throttle to intervene. If your tires are already at 100% grip in a corner, what's going to happen when you hit a bump? Same reason why we have suspensions. That energy/shock has to go somewhere.
If you notice now even stock, our 3IS stability control cuts in VERY early at the slightest detection of wheel slip. Overall I agree your product would generally provide more feel and feedback in most situations, but as with most things there is a price to be paid such as with an overly stiffer front: understeer. You have not addressed the rear of the car which has a very softly tuned subframe setup
Additionally, this argument has been going on forever in the BMW world. People replacing OEM multi-axis bushings designed to deflect and move with stiff bushings (in this case poly bushings). Just for reference, this is what famous and respected BMW Racer/tuner Team Vorshlag Motorsports has to say about stiffening bushings on a street car:
Many racers just blindly install polyurethane into this and all bushing locations as a "fix" for a worn OEM rubber RTAB bushing. Polyurethane is a bad choice for a bushing material if it has to deflect....
That said, some folks with fully track prepared race BMWs have had OK results with polyurethane RTABs (trailing arm bushings). This is due to the much higher spring rates and smoothness of tracks they tend to run with - higher spring rates and smooth tracks limit suspension travel, and thus limits the potential for bind from a polyurethane bushing at this bushing location. So even though you may hear good results from one racer, it doesn't necessarily mean that poly RTABs are the right choice for you. If you have a street car or dual purpose BMW you should always stick with OEM bushings
Just food for thought. everyone can make their own choice. But there's always a compromise somewhere when you "upgrade" something, particularly on a street driven vehicle. Just my opinion =)
The following users liked this post:
nan88 (09-06-18)
#71
Intermediate
Rafi is a great guy and there is no one I would trust except him when it comes to Lexus. We should support him because he is the only person that provides us with great aftermarket support. He definitely knows what he is talking about. Coming up with the first supercharger to ecu tuning, he is a pioneer for our cars. It sucks that the gb wasn't enough but maybe next time.
The following users liked this post:
RRRacing (09-06-18)
#72
Pole Position
Rafi is a great guy and there is no one I would trust except him when it comes to Lexus. We should support him because he is the only person that provides us with great aftermarket support. He definitely knows what he is talking about. Coming up with the first supercharger to ecu tuning, he is a pioneer for our cars. It sucks that the gb wasn't enough but maybe next time.
#73
SuperPro makes the bushings that FIGS sells. I bought a set of 90 durometer bushings and had them pressed into the OEM housings (unlike FIGS, they don't sell them installed in housings). I find they have a lot less NVH then the RR Racing bushings (which I ran for over a year before selling), cost a LOT less, and still correct the inner tire wear problem. Couldn't be happier!
#74
Pole Position
SuperPro makes the bushings that FIGS sells. I bought a set of 90 durometer bushings and had them pressed into the OEM housings (unlike FIGS, they don't sell them installed in housings). I find they have a lot less NVH then the RR Racing bushings (which I ran for over a year before selling), cost a LOT less, and still correct the inner tire wear problem. Couldn't be happier!
#75
Pole Position
@dteskmo Also would you happen to have a link for those?