Brake fluid flush/change
11-10-16, 03:24 AM
#1
Driver
Thread Starter
Brake fluid flush/change
my local lexus dealership is charging 130$ for a brake fluid flush/change. Does this seem like a fair cost? I'm bringing my car into the lexus dealership this weekend for my state inspection and emissions test so i might get the brake fluid flush service done. Also is changing the rear differential fluid neccesary? My car has 39k miles on it. Thanks all.
11-27-19, 05:10 PM
#2
Driver School Candidate
Replace brake fluid
First of all, never replace my prior non Lexus brake fluid. Called the Mechanics, he said around $120, but why
as he never replaced on his cars, and he kept his cars to 200K miles.
Actually, moisture might penetrate just a little into the brake fluid reservoir, which you can replace brake fluid there
easily. Elsewhere, the brake lines are a close system, that moisture can never reach anywhere else.
as he never replaced on his cars, and he kept his cars to 200K miles.
Actually, moisture might penetrate just a little into the brake fluid reservoir, which you can replace brake fluid there
easily. Elsewhere, the brake lines are a close system, that moisture can never reach anywhere else.
11-28-19, 05:11 AM
#3
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In terms of price, it seems relatively fair even after converting to CAD dollars.
You're usually looking at 1hr labor and then the fluid itself.
For brake fluid it's usually recommended to replace every 2 years, or about 30K Miles, so you're right around there now in terms of mileage.
While the brake system is sealed to an extent, the fluid in the reservoir will absorb moisture, which will weep throughout the rest of the system.
It's the same as the coolant system...it's also sealed until the valve in the rad cap opens, then the fluid in the system and the coolant reservoir are basically one until the cap closes again.
Once you see the fluid in the reservoir getting discolored, then you can be sure the fluid in the lines are discolored as well...the discoloration occurs when the fluid absorbs more and more moisture.
I'd also recommend changing the diff. fluid at the same time.
P.S. - mechanics are probably the worst for maintaining their own cars, cause it's their job to do it to everyone else's vehicle all day long...so it's one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" scenarios.
You're usually looking at 1hr labor and then the fluid itself.
For brake fluid it's usually recommended to replace every 2 years, or about 30K Miles, so you're right around there now in terms of mileage.
While the brake system is sealed to an extent, the fluid in the reservoir will absorb moisture, which will weep throughout the rest of the system.
It's the same as the coolant system...it's also sealed until the valve in the rad cap opens, then the fluid in the system and the coolant reservoir are basically one until the cap closes again.
Once you see the fluid in the reservoir getting discolored, then you can be sure the fluid in the lines are discolored as well...the discoloration occurs when the fluid absorbs more and more moisture.
I'd also recommend changing the diff. fluid at the same time.
P.S. - mechanics are probably the worst for maintaining their own cars, cause it's their job to do it to everyone else's vehicle all day long...so it's one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" scenarios.
11-28-19, 06:02 AM
#4
Driver School Candidate
There is a difference between the radiator fluid and brake fluid. The radiator is hot, and during each car
on/off there is an exchange between the antifreeze in the expansion tank and the radiator. The brake reservoir does not
go through such an exchange, You said the moisture would weep thru I guess I can take your word for it.
All I can say is I never replaced brake fluid on my prior Honda's. I dumped them around 15 years and 180K
miles mainly from non braked related issues especially the exhaust system. My Rx350 is at 62K miles, and
have not replaced the brake fluid. I talked to 2 mechanics so far, and they both asked who told you, and I said
the owner manual. They said ok if you want to spend the money. Took about 1-2 hours.
on/off there is an exchange between the antifreeze in the expansion tank and the radiator. The brake reservoir does not
go through such an exchange, You said the moisture would weep thru I guess I can take your word for it.
All I can say is I never replaced brake fluid on my prior Honda's. I dumped them around 15 years and 180K
miles mainly from non braked related issues especially the exhaust system. My Rx350 is at 62K miles, and
have not replaced the brake fluid. I talked to 2 mechanics so far, and they both asked who told you, and I said
the owner manual. They said ok if you want to spend the money. Took about 1-2 hours.
11-28-19, 06:52 AM
#5
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There is a difference between the radiator fluid and brake fluid. The radiator is hot, and during each car
on/off there is an exchange between the antifreeze in the expansion tank and the radiator. The brake reservoir does not
go through such an exchange, You said the moisture would weep thru I guess I can take your word for it.
All I can say is I never replaced brake fluid on my prior Honda's. I dumped them around 15 years and 180K
miles mainly from non braked related issues especially the exhaust system. My Rx350 is at 62K miles, and
have not replaced the brake fluid. I talked to 2 mechanics so far, and they both asked who told you, and I said
the owner manual. They said ok if you want to spend the money. Took about 1-2 hours.
on/off there is an exchange between the antifreeze in the expansion tank and the radiator. The brake reservoir does not
go through such an exchange, You said the moisture would weep thru I guess I can take your word for it.
All I can say is I never replaced brake fluid on my prior Honda's. I dumped them around 15 years and 180K
miles mainly from non braked related issues especially the exhaust system. My Rx350 is at 62K miles, and
have not replaced the brake fluid. I talked to 2 mechanics so far, and they both asked who told you, and I said
the owner manual. They said ok if you want to spend the money. Took about 1-2 hours.
The manufacturer has laid out a schedule for the items to be maintained on the vehicle, so it's really up to each owner to decide how they want to maintain their own vehicle.
With regards to the coolant example, as the fluid heats up, the level in the reservoir rises as the coolant is physically expanding...hence why the coolant reservoir is sometimes referred to as an expansion tank.
As the coolant cools and contracts, the level will drop in the tank...so you could say it's an exchange, but it's more of an expansion and contraction scenario...the fluid needs somewhere to go, other than onto the ground.
With regards to the brake fluid, as the brake material wears, the fluid level in the reservoir will drop...and if it drops low enough, the Brake Warning light will trigger.
When new brake material is installed and the pistons of the calipers are pushed back, the fluid level will rise again, usually right back to the Full mark.
So it obvious that the fluid in the reservoir is linked directly to the fluid in the lines and calipers.
Environment and usage do also play a part in the overall state of the brake fluid.
If you live in an environment with high humidity and don't drive your vehicle much, then the brake fluid will quickly absorb more moisture and get discolored faster.
If you live in an environment where it's warm and dry most of the time, and you daily drive the vehicle, it's possible the fluid life can be extended much longer.
The unseen issue with brake fluid is that as it absorbs moisture (gets darker) the boiling point of the fluid is reduced.
Reducing the boiling point of the fluid then leads to brake fade...which basically will extend the stopping distance of the vehicle, especially under hard braking.
You will note that most commonly passenger vehicles use DOT 3 fluid, and the operating temp. range is appropriate to street driving...whereas as race car will use DOT 5 fluid, which has a much higher boiling point.
I think we are all aware that coolant gets hot, but rarely do we think of brake fluid getting hot...cause where it's hot is not in the reservoir, but rather at the wheels. DOT 3 is good for at least 400F and DOT 5 for at least 500F.
An engine thermostat will usually open around 180-190F to maintain a constant operating temperature within the engine.
Not to mention that coolant has anti-corrosive additives to maintain the system, whereas brake fluid is a corrosive.
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Jazzrock (11-28-19)
11-28-19, 10:54 AM
#6
Driver School Candidate
Some addiitional quotes:
1. Water in the brake fluid leads to corrosion, but where does the water come from? After all, the brakes' hydraulic system is sealed; it is a closed system. The only time it is open to the atmosphere is when the cap on the master cylinder reservoir is removed to add fluid. And you should not have to add fluid unless there is a leak.
Water is tricky, however, and can get into the fluid from humidity in the air when the cap is removed from the reservoir. It also can penetrate the microscopic pores of the rubber hoses in the brake hydraulic circuit. Though there are corrosion inhibitors in the fluid, they wear out over time; up to 90 percent is gone in as little as three years. The more depleted they are, the less moisture it takes to cause corrosion damage.How often should you change the brake fluid? Some carmakers, particularly Europeans, specify fluid changes in their owner's manual. Domestic carmakers don't.
2. What do the auto makers say about fluid changes? General Motors and Chrysler do not mention brake fluid in their scheduled maintenance recommendations. A General Motors spokesman said Delco Supreme 11 DOT 3 brake fluid contains additives than many other brake fluids do not, so it is essentially a lifetime fluid. Starting in 1993, GM began using a new type of rubber brake hose with an EPM lining and outer jacketing that reduces moisture penetration by 50%. So GM does not consider fluid contamination to be a significant problem.Ford, however, recently changed its position and now recommends fresh fluid every 36,000 miles or three years, and to replace the fluid each time the brake pads are changed.
1. Water in the brake fluid leads to corrosion, but where does the water come from? After all, the brakes' hydraulic system is sealed; it is a closed system. The only time it is open to the atmosphere is when the cap on the master cylinder reservoir is removed to add fluid. And you should not have to add fluid unless there is a leak.
Water is tricky, however, and can get into the fluid from humidity in the air when the cap is removed from the reservoir. It also can penetrate the microscopic pores of the rubber hoses in the brake hydraulic circuit. Though there are corrosion inhibitors in the fluid, they wear out over time; up to 90 percent is gone in as little as three years. The more depleted they are, the less moisture it takes to cause corrosion damage.How often should you change the brake fluid? Some carmakers, particularly Europeans, specify fluid changes in their owner's manual. Domestic carmakers don't.
2. What do the auto makers say about fluid changes? General Motors and Chrysler do not mention brake fluid in their scheduled maintenance recommendations. A General Motors spokesman said Delco Supreme 11 DOT 3 brake fluid contains additives than many other brake fluids do not, so it is essentially a lifetime fluid. Starting in 1993, GM began using a new type of rubber brake hose with an EPM lining and outer jacketing that reduces moisture penetration by 50%. So GM does not consider fluid contamination to be a significant problem.Ford, however, recently changed its position and now recommends fresh fluid every 36,000 miles or three years, and to replace the fluid each time the brake pads are changed.
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11-28-19, 12:39 PM
#8
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Some addiitional quotes:
1. Water in the brake fluid leads to corrosion, but where does the water come from? After all, the brakes' hydraulic system is sealed; it is a closed system. The only time it is open to the atmosphere is when the cap on the master cylinder reservoir is removed to add fluid. And you should not have to add fluid unless there is a leak.
Water is tricky, however, and can get into the fluid from humidity in the air when the cap is removed from the reservoir. It also can penetrate the microscopic pores of the rubber hoses in the brake hydraulic circuit. Though there are corrosion inhibitors in the fluid, they wear out over time; up to 90 percent is gone in as little as three years. The more depleted they are, the less moisture it takes to cause corrosion damage.How often should you change the brake fluid? Some carmakers, particularly Europeans, specify fluid changes in their owner's manual. Domestic carmakers don't.
2. What do the auto makers say about fluid changes? General Motors and Chrysler do not mention brake fluid in their scheduled maintenance recommendations. A General Motors spokesman said Delco Supreme 11 DOT 3 brake fluid contains additives than many other brake fluids do not, so it is essentially a lifetime fluid. Starting in 1993, GM began using a new type of rubber brake hose with an EPM lining and outer jacketing that reduces moisture penetration by 50%. So GM does not consider fluid contamination to be a significant problem.Ford, however, recently changed its position and now recommends fresh fluid every 36,000 miles or three years, and to replace the fluid each time the brake pads are changed.
1. Water in the brake fluid leads to corrosion, but where does the water come from? After all, the brakes' hydraulic system is sealed; it is a closed system. The only time it is open to the atmosphere is when the cap on the master cylinder reservoir is removed to add fluid. And you should not have to add fluid unless there is a leak.
Water is tricky, however, and can get into the fluid from humidity in the air when the cap is removed from the reservoir. It also can penetrate the microscopic pores of the rubber hoses in the brake hydraulic circuit. Though there are corrosion inhibitors in the fluid, they wear out over time; up to 90 percent is gone in as little as three years. The more depleted they are, the less moisture it takes to cause corrosion damage.How often should you change the brake fluid? Some carmakers, particularly Europeans, specify fluid changes in their owner's manual. Domestic carmakers don't.
2. What do the auto makers say about fluid changes? General Motors and Chrysler do not mention brake fluid in their scheduled maintenance recommendations. A General Motors spokesman said Delco Supreme 11 DOT 3 brake fluid contains additives than many other brake fluids do not, so it is essentially a lifetime fluid. Starting in 1993, GM began using a new type of rubber brake hose with an EPM lining and outer jacketing that reduces moisture penetration by 50%. So GM does not consider fluid contamination to be a significant problem.Ford, however, recently changed its position and now recommends fresh fluid every 36,000 miles or three years, and to replace the fluid each time the brake pads are changed.
2. Lexus has a recommended service for flushing the brake fluid. While I appreciate other manufacturers may not, those are not the vehicles being discussed here. Also, some manufacturers use DOT 4, usually European companies, doesn't mean I would put it in a Lexus, as the brake system is not designed for DOT 4.
At the end of the day you are free to service your own vehicle as you like, the purpose of the information I've provided is so the OP can make an informed decision...their own decision. Whatever they decide to do won't impact me or you in any way.
11-28-19, 12:55 PM
#9
Driver School Candidate
The brake reservoir cap has a hole vented to atmosphere. But moisture in the reservoir is not a real issue as the brake fluid there
can be easily replaced with a baster. As long as the moistue can not somehow diffuse down into the brake lines. The microscopic pores
mentioned are more of a concern. As you mentioned, it is only a $120 job and it can only help. More concerned with the transmission fluid flushing
operation if it makes it worse as Lexus does not recommend that, and I think most Lexus dealeers will not do that either. My own mechanics
said don't bug him until about 150,000 miles and he has a Lexus too.
can be easily replaced with a baster. As long as the moistue can not somehow diffuse down into the brake lines. The microscopic pores
mentioned are more of a concern. As you mentioned, it is only a $120 job and it can only help. More concerned with the transmission fluid flushing
operation if it makes it worse as Lexus does not recommend that, and I think most Lexus dealeers will not do that either. My own mechanics
said don't bug him until about 150,000 miles and he has a Lexus too.
11-28-19, 01:11 PM
#10
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The brake reservoir cap has a hole vented to atmosphere. But moisture in the reservoir is not a real issue as the brake fluid there
can be easily replaced with a baster. As long as the moistue can not somehow diffuse down into the brake lines. The microscopic pores
mentioned are more of a concern. As you mentioned, it is only a $120 job and it can only help. More concerned with the transmission fluid flushing
operation if it makes it worse as Lexus does not recommend that, and I think most Lexus dealeers will not do that either. My own mechanics
said don't bug him until about 150,000 miles and he has a Lexus too.
can be easily replaced with a baster. As long as the moistue can not somehow diffuse down into the brake lines. The microscopic pores
mentioned are more of a concern. As you mentioned, it is only a $120 job and it can only help. More concerned with the transmission fluid flushing
operation if it makes it worse as Lexus does not recommend that, and I think most Lexus dealeers will not do that either. My own mechanics
said don't bug him until about 150,000 miles and he has a Lexus too.
If the fluid is black in the reservoir and you open the bleeder at any caliper, the fluid will also be black.
The moisture will contaminate all the fluid in the system...not just the reservoir.
Brake fluid by design is hygroscopic...meaning it absorbs moisture.
As for the transmission flush, you will never see Toyota/Lexus recommend flushing as there are no factory service tools/equipment to flush transmission fluid.
They can only recommend something that a procedure in the repair manual can be created for. A drain and fill is all that you will see to date.
Going forward into the future that could change, but I don't it as they promote the transmissions as sealed and the fluid as lifetime...which there are varying opinions about.
If a dealer was to flush transmission fluid it would be with a 3rd party machine.
Personally if I was to flush transmission fluid I would do it earlier in the vehicles life as opposed to later...the chances for something the go wrong later is higher. But that's my way of looking at it...others will have differing opinions.
11-28-19, 01:46 PM
#11
Driver School Candidate
What I read was many car manufacturers seal their transmissions because they found out
a lot of damages were caused by the wrong fluid added to it. I have gone to Valvoline for
transmission fluid change on my Honda. I asked them on the phone, they said it was Honda
fluid. At the site, asked them to show me the bottles, turned out was their own universal
transmission fluid. They said they used on all cars, BMW, Honda, Audi, Lexus etc. My son
got them to change transmission fluid on his Honda, and the transmssion was shot soon
afterwards.
a lot of damages were caused by the wrong fluid added to it. I have gone to Valvoline for
transmission fluid change on my Honda. I asked them on the phone, they said it was Honda
fluid. At the site, asked them to show me the bottles, turned out was their own universal
transmission fluid. They said they used on all cars, BMW, Honda, Audi, Lexus etc. My son
got them to change transmission fluid on his Honda, and the transmssion was shot soon
afterwards.
11-28-19, 11:57 PM
#12
First of all, never replace my prior non Lexus brake fluid. Called the Mechanics, he said around $120, but why
as he never replaced on his cars, and he kept his cars to 200K miles.
Actually, moisture might penetrate just a little into the brake fluid reservoir, which you can replace brake fluid there
easily. Elsewhere, the brake lines are a close system, that moisture can never reach anywhere else.
as he never replaced on his cars, and he kept his cars to 200K miles.
Actually, moisture might penetrate just a little into the brake fluid reservoir, which you can replace brake fluid there
easily. Elsewhere, the brake lines are a close system, that moisture can never reach anywhere else.
As a matter of experiment, I flushed mine with DOT4 for a bit higher resistance to boiling....
11-29-19, 06:48 AM
#13
Driver School Candidate
Replacing brake fluid is an interesting subject. I mentioned I myself never replaced it on my Hondas and I
kept them 15 years around 180K miles. Ask my friends with BMW, Acura, they also don't replace brake fluid.
I will replace my 62K miles RX350 next Monday. My mechanics lets me observe all his work, and sometimes help him
since it is an one man shop. Will report here the color of the brake fluid.
kept them 15 years around 180K miles. Ask my friends with BMW, Acura, they also don't replace brake fluid.
I will replace my 62K miles RX350 next Monday. My mechanics lets me observe all his work, and sometimes help him
since it is an one man shop. Will report here the color of the brake fluid.
11-29-19, 07:16 AM
#14
Driver School Candidate
Also if I see my mechanics uses an already open brake fluid bottle, I will yell at him. I yelled at him before
and he gave me a hard time for appointment for 6 months.
and he gave me a hard time for appointment for 6 months.
11-30-19, 10:39 AM
#15
Driver School Candidate
The fact remains the Hondas in our family all driven 15 years 180K miles and never replaced brake fluid.
My friends never replaced in their Mercedes for 20 years. The mechanics told us he never replaced his and
said a stupid thing to do. Some say the moisture can seep in thru micropores of the rubber brake parts is just
garbage. If there are micropores, then brake fluid will leak when you push the brake. And if mechanics uses
an a year old open brake fluid bottle to flush your brake line, that is just like pouring water into your brake system.
How about all the moisture getting into the brake system during the flushing process. Might do more damage
than good. Makes me want to cancel the Monday appointment. I called the Mechanics that I expected he used
brand new brake fluid for my job, and he just laughed.
My friends never replaced in their Mercedes for 20 years. The mechanics told us he never replaced his and
said a stupid thing to do. Some say the moisture can seep in thru micropores of the rubber brake parts is just
garbage. If there are micropores, then brake fluid will leak when you push the brake. And if mechanics uses
an a year old open brake fluid bottle to flush your brake line, that is just like pouring water into your brake system.
How about all the moisture getting into the brake system during the flushing process. Might do more damage
than good. Makes me want to cancel the Monday appointment. I called the Mechanics that I expected he used
brand new brake fluid for my job, and he just laughed.