The "Look what I got today!" Thread
11-15-13, 11:23 PM
#117
Lexus Test Driver
i was wondering the same thing, so i looked it up!
OMG this has got to be the biggest snake oil scam i have yet seen!
ok so heres the scoop this little gem is supposed to replace the alternator charge wire to the battery. and allegedly it monitors and adjusts the voltage going to the battery thereby saving wasted load on the engine by charging it.
let me shed a little electronics 101 on the subject matter.
the first thing you need to realize is the ONLY way to charge a battery is to have a higher voltage potential at the alternator than the static voltage at the battery.
this is why all automotive electrical systems usually charge around 14.0.14.7 volts the static voltage of a 12 volt battery is 12.8 volts.
i get the concept that reducing the load charging the battery might save some fuel, but the reality is once the battery recovers from the initial starting process it takes about 30 minutes for a typical lead acid battery to recover what was lost. after that the vehicles electrical system which may be a fan, ignition coil packs, fuel injectors lights etc has a way more significant load on the alternator than does charging the battery because the batteries internal resistance will go up as it charges. once it has reached about 13-13.5 volts in charge mode there is less than an amp of current flowing into the battery.
the first dead giveaway is the claim that the engine will run smoother, and the quote copied right off the website is first off spelled wrong.
"This fluctuation of voltage from the Alternator is called ripper. This ripper will cause the voltage signal of the sensors and actuators to fluctuate as well, causing the sensors and actuators to receive irregular signals. Thus producing inaccurate signals to car’s ECU and other electrical circuits and causes the performance of the car to be less than satisfactory. Sometimes, you may have noticed that high fluctuation of voltage (from voltage meter/gauge) and performance/power loss when loads (such as air-conditioning, headlights, sound system, electrical/electronics components and parts and etc…) are switched on."
it's not ripper it's RIPPLE!!
and so what if the voltage changes by a few tenths of a volt? the cars electrical system was designed to deal with that! nearly every electrical component that is voltage sensitive in the ECU or radio or any part is always regulated internally to a lower voltage if 12 volts is not needed. so those circuits and components never see any voltage fluctuation at all.
for example, the article goes on to say..
"The function of UTR Power Charger Evo series is to minimize this fluctuation of voltage, backup power from alternator (voltage supply) and improve performance, power and responsiveness. The effect of this will be crisper signal to and from sensors and actuators. This will allow the ECU to more accurate with precision with little tolerance. Therefore, accurate signal will produce more efficient engine output."
name me 1 single sensor on any modern engine from any manufacturer that uses anything but a 5 volt signal? o2 sensor has a 5 volt signal, so does the MAF, so does the Cam and crank position sensor through the use of a hall effect sensor, even the ABS system uses the same logic. the only systems in a cars engine system that uses the full 12 volts would be ignition coil packs, and fuel injectors, the starter and probably the VVTI cam timing.
all of those circuits use the 12 volts where high current loads are needed to drive solenoids, relays coils and similar.
saves gas? i highly doubt that! adds power? none that you could even see with a dyno i am sure!
ok so let's give the benefit of doubt, let's say this little gizmo actually does increase the cold cranking amps of the battery (which it simply cannot) what difference does that make? how many times have you started the car only to find it wouldn't start even in the coldest of weather and you find you simply did not have enough cranking amps to start the car?
umm yea, thats really been a problem…… i think in the last 15 years of car ownership i have replaced exactly 0 batteries for that reason.
here are their claims
The following are some of the improvement you will see after using UTR Power Charger EVO series:
1 - Stabilizes the power system, and excels the electrical discharge efficiency.
2 - Reduces the noise interference to the electrical system, thus extending the life of electrical components.
3 - Improve acceleration and responsiveness.
4 - Improves car ignition, and saves the fuel.
5 - Reduces engine trembling, and enhances engine response.
6 - Improves startup torque, and improves the stability at idle speed.
7 - Eliminates noise from the alternator, and resolve the car's internal electrical system's impedance resistance problems.
8 - Increase battery Cold Cranking Ampere (CCA) performance instantly with lower resistance in battery.
ok I'm really laughing here but anyway
1- stabilizes the electrical system, well that MIGHT be possible but "excels the electrical discharge efficiency"? does that mean it helps to discharge the battery? why would you want that?
2- reduces noise? ill address that below..
3- ha! every performance seekers dream, we all want that! that's like saying trojan condoms enhance pleasure for a guy who hasn't had sex in 10 years! definitely buy into that!
4- same as 3 you can't prove either by any measurable amount!
5- if your engine is trembling your probably not firing on all 6 cylinders and your issue is more than this little gem can correct, and didn't we cover the rest in 3 and 4? i guess if you say it enough times it must be true!
6- how would it improve startup torque? well if you use a heavier gauge wire, that's actually true, however if the starting of the engine was never a problem to begin with, why do you need to resolve that problem? i just addressed idle quality in #5 no need to mention this again.
7- if the alternator is making noise it shouldn't it's either broken (defective) or its a result of the AC electrical energy it makes. and you cannot have impedance in a DC electrical system. if you look up the definition impedance is the opposition to current flow in an AC circuit it's basically resistance that changes through an AC reactive component such as a capacitor or a coil. it is also a resistance value that cannot be read on a meter, only calculated using OHM's law and a reactance formula.
8. if you could actually alter the battery internal resistance, you would really be onto something here, however a lead acid batteries resistance changes with voltage and temperature. a lead acid batteries weakest link is the lead itself, it has a relatively high resistance as a conductor to begin with.
if you really want battery performance look into lithium iron batteries, (not ion) the technology is taking the world by storm in the motorcycle and ATV segment.
i bought a Shori LI/IO battery for my dirt bike and it weighs about 2 pounds verses the 8 lb AGM battery, has 2x the cold cranking amps and is about 1/3rd the phial size as the original.
they have a much lower internal resistance and they charge way more efficiently than a lead acid or AGM battery, virtually unaffected by cold temps, in fact actually increase the cold cranking amps as temps drop.
the only way this device could regulate voltage is through use Of a VERY, VERY, VERY high current transistor because from the looks of the gauge wire and the fact i cannot find any installation instructions i can only assume this unit can handle the starting current to the starter which is easily 150 amps on startup.
even so. during charging most alternators output close to 200 amps and the only way to handle that much current with a transistor is a switching transistor and a high frequency switching circuit because to direct drive a transistor in this configuration would generate over 150 watts of heat into that little box of magic! there are not nearly enough heat sink on that box to dissipate that much wasted heat.
a high frequency switched transistor would be anything but free of noise.
now having said all of that, let's look at the actual design of a modern charge system. first off they call the alternator an alternator for a reason, it actually makes alternating current. much like the current out of your wall outlet. the only difference is it changes frequency with the rpm of the engine and is converted to DC (ALTHOUGH PULSATING DC) just before it goes into the internal voltage regulator, then output to the battery. so the voltage in reality is never constant to begin with coming out of the alternator. it literally swings from 0 to +14.7V several thousand of times per second depending on engine rpm. anyone who has heard alternator whine through their speakers knows exactly what this sounds like frequency wise.
the only way to filter this would be with the use of a Large capacitor which they do mention, however since the unit is clearly wired up in series with the alternator and battery with the heavy gauge wire a capacitor would do nothing since it would have to be hooked parallel with the battery, and even so would do little for filtering especially with an electrical system under a heavy load.
i would pay money to see what's on the inside of that box. my guess is a 6 ga wire makes a loop through the box with a connection for the green led light and the smaller ground wire to the negative side of the battery to make it light up.
a couple lead weights inside to make it feel like it's full of goodies
and i hope the 600.00 price tag is in YEN because this has to be the biggest waste of money I've yet seen in the automotive industry.
if it actually worked, it solves a problem that first of all doest exist to begin with, and the name of the company speaks volumes "trusty holdings" sounds like an LLC for obvious reasons. and also they make massage chairs! classic!
i also notices several people looking to sell their used power chargers, gee i wonder why?
to the poster that bought that, please remove it from your car and try your best to get a refund, you've been had!
OMG this has got to be the biggest snake oil scam i have yet seen!
ok so heres the scoop this little gem is supposed to replace the alternator charge wire to the battery. and allegedly it monitors and adjusts the voltage going to the battery thereby saving wasted load on the engine by charging it.
let me shed a little electronics 101 on the subject matter.
the first thing you need to realize is the ONLY way to charge a battery is to have a higher voltage potential at the alternator than the static voltage at the battery.
this is why all automotive electrical systems usually charge around 14.0.14.7 volts the static voltage of a 12 volt battery is 12.8 volts.
i get the concept that reducing the load charging the battery might save some fuel, but the reality is once the battery recovers from the initial starting process it takes about 30 minutes for a typical lead acid battery to recover what was lost. after that the vehicles electrical system which may be a fan, ignition coil packs, fuel injectors lights etc has a way more significant load on the alternator than does charging the battery because the batteries internal resistance will go up as it charges. once it has reached about 13-13.5 volts in charge mode there is less than an amp of current flowing into the battery.
the first dead giveaway is the claim that the engine will run smoother, and the quote copied right off the website is first off spelled wrong.
"This fluctuation of voltage from the Alternator is called ripper. This ripper will cause the voltage signal of the sensors and actuators to fluctuate as well, causing the sensors and actuators to receive irregular signals. Thus producing inaccurate signals to car’s ECU and other electrical circuits and causes the performance of the car to be less than satisfactory. Sometimes, you may have noticed that high fluctuation of voltage (from voltage meter/gauge) and performance/power loss when loads (such as air-conditioning, headlights, sound system, electrical/electronics components and parts and etc…) are switched on."
it's not ripper it's RIPPLE!!
and so what if the voltage changes by a few tenths of a volt? the cars electrical system was designed to deal with that! nearly every electrical component that is voltage sensitive in the ECU or radio or any part is always regulated internally to a lower voltage if 12 volts is not needed. so those circuits and components never see any voltage fluctuation at all.
for example, the article goes on to say..
"The function of UTR Power Charger Evo series is to minimize this fluctuation of voltage, backup power from alternator (voltage supply) and improve performance, power and responsiveness. The effect of this will be crisper signal to and from sensors and actuators. This will allow the ECU to more accurate with precision with little tolerance. Therefore, accurate signal will produce more efficient engine output."
name me 1 single sensor on any modern engine from any manufacturer that uses anything but a 5 volt signal? o2 sensor has a 5 volt signal, so does the MAF, so does the Cam and crank position sensor through the use of a hall effect sensor, even the ABS system uses the same logic. the only systems in a cars engine system that uses the full 12 volts would be ignition coil packs, and fuel injectors, the starter and probably the VVTI cam timing.
all of those circuits use the 12 volts where high current loads are needed to drive solenoids, relays coils and similar.
saves gas? i highly doubt that! adds power? none that you could even see with a dyno i am sure!
ok so let's give the benefit of doubt, let's say this little gizmo actually does increase the cold cranking amps of the battery (which it simply cannot) what difference does that make? how many times have you started the car only to find it wouldn't start even in the coldest of weather and you find you simply did not have enough cranking amps to start the car?
umm yea, thats really been a problem…… i think in the last 15 years of car ownership i have replaced exactly 0 batteries for that reason.
here are their claims
The following are some of the improvement you will see after using UTR Power Charger EVO series:
1 - Stabilizes the power system, and excels the electrical discharge efficiency.
2 - Reduces the noise interference to the electrical system, thus extending the life of electrical components.
3 - Improve acceleration and responsiveness.
4 - Improves car ignition, and saves the fuel.
5 - Reduces engine trembling, and enhances engine response.
6 - Improves startup torque, and improves the stability at idle speed.
7 - Eliminates noise from the alternator, and resolve the car's internal electrical system's impedance resistance problems.
8 - Increase battery Cold Cranking Ampere (CCA) performance instantly with lower resistance in battery.
ok I'm really laughing here but anyway
1- stabilizes the electrical system, well that MIGHT be possible but "excels the electrical discharge efficiency"? does that mean it helps to discharge the battery? why would you want that?
2- reduces noise? ill address that below..
3- ha! every performance seekers dream, we all want that! that's like saying trojan condoms enhance pleasure for a guy who hasn't had sex in 10 years! definitely buy into that!
4- same as 3 you can't prove either by any measurable amount!
5- if your engine is trembling your probably not firing on all 6 cylinders and your issue is more than this little gem can correct, and didn't we cover the rest in 3 and 4? i guess if you say it enough times it must be true!
6- how would it improve startup torque? well if you use a heavier gauge wire, that's actually true, however if the starting of the engine was never a problem to begin with, why do you need to resolve that problem? i just addressed idle quality in #5 no need to mention this again.
7- if the alternator is making noise it shouldn't it's either broken (defective) or its a result of the AC electrical energy it makes. and you cannot have impedance in a DC electrical system. if you look up the definition impedance is the opposition to current flow in an AC circuit it's basically resistance that changes through an AC reactive component such as a capacitor or a coil. it is also a resistance value that cannot be read on a meter, only calculated using OHM's law and a reactance formula.
8. if you could actually alter the battery internal resistance, you would really be onto something here, however a lead acid batteries resistance changes with voltage and temperature. a lead acid batteries weakest link is the lead itself, it has a relatively high resistance as a conductor to begin with.
if you really want battery performance look into lithium iron batteries, (not ion) the technology is taking the world by storm in the motorcycle and ATV segment.
i bought a Shori LI/IO battery for my dirt bike and it weighs about 2 pounds verses the 8 lb AGM battery, has 2x the cold cranking amps and is about 1/3rd the phial size as the original.
they have a much lower internal resistance and they charge way more efficiently than a lead acid or AGM battery, virtually unaffected by cold temps, in fact actually increase the cold cranking amps as temps drop.
the only way this device could regulate voltage is through use Of a VERY, VERY, VERY high current transistor because from the looks of the gauge wire and the fact i cannot find any installation instructions i can only assume this unit can handle the starting current to the starter which is easily 150 amps on startup.
even so. during charging most alternators output close to 200 amps and the only way to handle that much current with a transistor is a switching transistor and a high frequency switching circuit because to direct drive a transistor in this configuration would generate over 150 watts of heat into that little box of magic! there are not nearly enough heat sink on that box to dissipate that much wasted heat.
a high frequency switched transistor would be anything but free of noise.
now having said all of that, let's look at the actual design of a modern charge system. first off they call the alternator an alternator for a reason, it actually makes alternating current. much like the current out of your wall outlet. the only difference is it changes frequency with the rpm of the engine and is converted to DC (ALTHOUGH PULSATING DC) just before it goes into the internal voltage regulator, then output to the battery. so the voltage in reality is never constant to begin with coming out of the alternator. it literally swings from 0 to +14.7V several thousand of times per second depending on engine rpm. anyone who has heard alternator whine through their speakers knows exactly what this sounds like frequency wise.
the only way to filter this would be with the use of a Large capacitor which they do mention, however since the unit is clearly wired up in series with the alternator and battery with the heavy gauge wire a capacitor would do nothing since it would have to be hooked parallel with the battery, and even so would do little for filtering especially with an electrical system under a heavy load.
i would pay money to see what's on the inside of that box. my guess is a 6 ga wire makes a loop through the box with a connection for the green led light and the smaller ground wire to the negative side of the battery to make it light up.
a couple lead weights inside to make it feel like it's full of goodies
and i hope the 600.00 price tag is in YEN because this has to be the biggest waste of money I've yet seen in the automotive industry.
if it actually worked, it solves a problem that first of all doest exist to begin with, and the name of the company speaks volumes "trusty holdings" sounds like an LLC for obvious reasons. and also they make massage chairs! classic!
i also notices several people looking to sell their used power chargers, gee i wonder why?
to the poster that bought that, please remove it from your car and try your best to get a refund, you've been had!
11-16-13, 07:09 AM
#118
Pole Position
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Singapore
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BassMech, thanks for sharing your immense knowledge and a layman like me did know so much.
it's a learning curve for me...
https://www.facebook.com/EPSMotorSports
Googles about this product and decided to give it a shot.
My own experience after installing is smoother running engine, revs that climb faster and cleaner music sound with a tighter bass. Maybe it's all in my mind.....
Feeling kinda sucky after reading your facts and am thinking of doing a back to back test with and without this power charger...
it's a learning curve for me...
https://www.facebook.com/EPSMotorSports
Googles about this product and decided to give it a shot.
My own experience after installing is smoother running engine, revs that climb faster and cleaner music sound with a tighter bass. Maybe it's all in my mind.....
Feeling kinda sucky after reading your facts and am thinking of doing a back to back test with and without this power charger...
11-16-13, 08:29 AM
#119
Lexus Test Driver
BassMech, thanks for sharing your immense knowledge and a layman like me did know so much.
it's a learning curve for me...
https://www.facebook.com/EPSMotorSports
Googles about this product and decided to give it a shot.
My own experience after installing is smoother running engine, revs that climb faster and cleaner music sound with a tighter bass. Maybe it's all in my mind.....
Feeling kinda sucky after reading your facts and am thinking of doing a back to back test with and without this power charger...
it's a learning curve for me...
https://www.facebook.com/EPSMotorSports
Googles about this product and decided to give it a shot.
My own experience after installing is smoother running engine, revs that climb faster and cleaner music sound with a tighter bass. Maybe it's all in my mind.....
Feeling kinda sucky after reading your facts and am thinking of doing a back to back test with and without this power charger...
if you can tell any difference that is repeatable and provable ill be shocked. still one to take a look inside that little box.
