lomarica01

deciding between the 450h and 350. we live in high cost california where gas is expensive. I notice in the 450h manual premium gas is required
Select premium unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 (Research Octane Number 96) or higher required for optimum engine performance and fuel econ-omy.If the octane rating is less than 91, damage to the engine may occur and may void the vehicle warranty. Premium gas costs about 10% more so the way I see it that extra cost compared to the 350 effectively reduces the fuel savings.

so if on the combined mileage for the 350 is 23mpg taking pas pricing into account 23+2.3=25.3mpg or
for the 450h combined is 30mpg taking gas pricing into account 30-3=27mpg

does anyone else see it that way or is the retired engineer over analyzing? all this really does is make the payback longer note I am comparing the 23mpg to the 27mpg The 450h still saves about $380 per year based on 15,000 miles less if gas prices go lower
thanks for any comments

ut2sua

The difference should realistically be around 9 MPG between the hybrid and non-hybrid (based on my 3X RX450h experience). You will get around 20 MPG out of the 4X RX350 in CA (I am owning one now).
Depending on how much more you have to pay for the hybrid and keeping in mind the battery replacement cost after ~8 years. My advice is to pick the hybrid if you like the driving characteristic of the car. Good luck

gregjhonda

I use premium on my 450H almost all the time. I've used a few tanks of regular and the engine torque feels the same as when I use premium but I do lose a few MPG. The dealer I bought the car from new just filled it with regular gas like they do with all cars on the lot.

JDR76

If I were to offer any real advice here, it would be to not occupy yourself with determining the break-even point, because it doesn't tell the whole story. With the 450h, you are getting more power and torque, slow-speed silent motoring, avoiding the characteristics of the 8 speed auto that some find unfavorable, and you're getting lower maintenance costs. This is why we went Hybrid when we bought our Highlander - the better fuel consumption is just a bonus in my book.

So when you're figuring out your calculations, remember all of that plus some of these potential long term maintenance savings:

• Brakes unlikely to ever need replacing, or at least at a MUCH longer interval than the 350.
• No starter to ever fail.
• No alternator to ever fail.
• No serpentine belt to need replacing.

One thing I have a hard time quantifying is the fact that the gasoline engine has fewer miles on it than what the odometer shows. Depending on your driving habits, you can spend quite a bit of time driving just on electric each day. That's a lot of additional wear that is not being put on your engine.

Good luck in your decision!

golferjack

I totally agree with JDR76, and to just put a finer point on it, the gas mileage debate is just nickels and dimes compared to the other real savings. I have a 450HL and have never run anything but cheap regular.. In fact I have had many cars that required premium and always just used regular.. The ICVT transmission is bulletproof and will never need software updates or maintenance .I also have a RAV and it is just as smooth as our RX. Here is a link to an RAV site where someone has gone 247,000 miles before doing any real maintenance.By the way, Toyota is beginning to consider that the battery is almost a life of the car part. There are so many untrue concerns about the battery. They just don't break anymore, and with the computer keeping it charged between 20 and 80%, there is little or no stress on it. If you search the web, you will find many articles about how NY City Prius taxis are having no trouble going 250,00 miles trouble free. Buy one and enjoy.

Moisture

I would still go for the 450H.

If you are putting ethanol-free 91 octane into your car it will easily account for 10% better efficiency.

You can use regular, but I don't think its worth it in the long run.

lomarica01

interesting responses things I did not think about I was only concerned with the gas mileage. however in California at least the dealers are having a hard time finding one with the color I want and options like the HUD and I do not want to special order so we are going with the 350
we also wanted a plug in hybrid but there are even less choices with that type of vehicle

kolokmee

If you are at all concerned about gas mileage, don't make the same mistake I did. Back when I was looking at the '16s, it was nearly impossible to find the hybrids in the colour I wanted (nightfall and noble brown); so I figured I'd settle for the 350.

Within a year, I was kicking myself for not getting the 450h. The 350 was getting nowhere near the rated city mileage, and I was stopping to fill up every 6 days; where all my other cars in the past (including a pretty thirsty 335i) would last me at least 8-10 days on the same commute. It didn't help that up here in Vancouver, we have the highest gas prices in all of North America.

By the end of year 2, I finally gave in and bit the depreciation. Traded the 350 for the '18 450h, and couldn't be happier. Even if I couldn't find the exact colour I wanted. It wasn't just the gas mileage -- I went from the equivalent of 17-18 mpg on average to 32-34 mpg with the exact same commute and very minimal change in driving style. Depending on the week, my usual fillup schedule is now 11 days to sometimes stretching out to almost 2 wks in the summer. The hybrid takes way less gas to fill up too. Even with the difference in premium vs regular gas prices up here, the cost to fill up each tank between the 350 and 450h is almost a wash.

The others have already touched on the other factors that favour the 450h, so I won't repeat them.

Edit: as for PHEV, if you're willing to wait, the RAV4 Prime is coming out next year, and is a very intriguing choice for a plug-in hybrid. I would expect the PHEV version of the NX to be available shortly after the new TNGA model is released; and hopefully become an option for the RX soon.

ukrkoz

This is interesting question.
Reason being, Highlander hybrid has identical power train and was always regular 87 octane.
Far I know, since 2011, RX hybrids were switched to 87 octane too.
Did they bring 91 back? Hybrids always were regular gas, Are you sure you looked at hybrid specific user guide?
Donno. Buy Highlander hgYBRID MAYBE? mUCH BETTER UTILITY CAR ANYWAY. yEAH, HAS FEW ELECTRONIC GIZMOS LESS AND IS NOT MUCH OF STATUS CAR, but it grand and very practical otherwise. Esp Limited.

goatee

I guess my question is: Why exactly is premium fuel required for this engine and why can't Lexus/Toyota design it to use regular fuel?

bgil47

The highlander hybrid engine has 12.5 compression , the lexus 450h has 13 to one compression. Maybe that small difference is the reason for the requirement for Premium fuel. I have a 2020 450h and am running premium in it. Its about 15% more per gallon then regular, but the hybrid gets about 30% better fuel mileage so I believe its worth it.

wa3cuj

I run mid grade in my 2017. However, my dealer told me that their tanks are filled with regular and that is what I drove off the lot with!!!!

As to the cost of battery replacement, how many people on this board have ever replaced a battery pack in any hybrid they have every owned? Very few I suspect. I read an article recently (can't remember where) that said that overall hybrid battery life has been better than expected now that the first Prius vehicles are reaching 20 years since introduction. My battery pack is warranted for 8 years and I believe it is 10 years in California.

I have owned 3 rx450h's and 1 Avalon hybrid. I recently purchased a 2020 Mercedes 350 GLE and although I love the vehicle, I wish I had gotten another hybrid. They just make sense in my book.

golferjack

The batteries are beginning to be viewed as a part that is good for the life of the vehicle, because the computer does such a good job of keeping the battery between 20 and 80%. It just never is over or under charged. Besides if the battery did go bad only the bad cells are replaced. Battery worries continue to be part of the folk lore of hybrids or evs.

1Louder

I always found it to be a puzzling claim that lower octane would damage the engine and void the warranty. That could be a true statement if your engine experienced prolonged, consistent knocking. Modern engines won't do that. They detect it and adjust the valves/timing immediately.

For the reasons already stated, I'd just go with the 450h, use premium or mid-grade if you are worried about it, and enjoy the better mpg. Honestly what you could save on brake pads and rotors alone may offset the cost of regular vs. premium and then some, never mind the better mpg. My 16 just had it's 30k service and the original pads are 8mm and 10mm. I also get a consistent 30-32 mpg.

jrobe

I previously owned a Lexus RX 400h and used regular gasoline which was fine according to my Owners Manual (premium gas was suggested but not required). I recently decided to buy a RX 350 instead of a RX 450h because the RX 450 now requires premium gasoline per the Owner's Manual (unlike the RX350). I did the math and quickly decided to get the RX 350 this time. Here is the math.

The current price for regular gas in my area is $2.39 and the price of premium gas is $3.09. Using the stated mileage of 23 mph for the RX 350 and 30 mph for the RX 450h, the long term cost of gasoline for driving 100,000 is exactly the same for both vehicles ($10,300) if you follow manufactures recommendation for both cars. I wasn't willing to go against the clearly stated requirements from Lexus.

In other words, there is no financial advantage to the RX 450h unless one goes against the manufactures recommendation and uses regular gasoline in the RX 450h (assuming the price difference of regular and premium stays the same in the future). In fact, since the RX 450 cost $1000 more, there is a financial disadvantage to the RX 450h.