Lexusfreak

Agreed & well said!

biker

Everyone wants to get on the hybrid bandwagong when they think the competition is passing them by. The main reason Porsche ever made the Cayene is cause the SUV craze in the US - didn't want to be left behind.
I'd venture to guess that quite a few folks would agree that the SUV craze is not necessarily a good thing in the big scheme of things - other than keeping the big 3 afloat.

My main issue with current generation of hybrids is the blind faith some people seem to have that it will magically improve the enviormental/performance problems.
While some advancements will happen, they will be incremental and have higher costs. It is highly unlikely someone will suddenly come up with a system that will get a 3500lb car to 60 in 6 s and get 50mpg.

flipside909

Well it's not you to decide what the general consumer wants in a vehicle. An alternative fuel/energy vehicle is better than nothing at all. It's a step in the right direction from conventional methods. Yes, the technology is at a premium right now but as soon as supply overcomes demand, in the long run, this will only be beneficial for consumers and of course better for manufacturers to improve and streamline technology. All things come at a premium especially when they are new and in demand. Nissan last year went to Toyota for their Hybrid Synergy drive technology, so did Ford and Porsche. That goes to show you that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon? Not necessarily..but is it a bad thing? Not at all.

Your issue is far fetched because you're seeing things from your biased points of short term narrow minded views. But then again, you fail to see the big picture in the long run. A home computers and cell phones were once an expensive items in the past, but with improving technology and lower costs to produce these goods, home computers & cell phones are dime a dozen and in a competative market. Anything is possible. No one ever thought cars would ever cost $30k in the early 1900's. You fail to support your arguments with credible info...instead you try to make your arguments as if you were Ralph Nader in a conservative and liberal world. You said it yourself, you would rather have a smaller gas powered vehicle than a hybrid or diesel. If you are looking for that perfect Geo Metro, why do you come here to argue that point in a GS discussion or Lexus forum for that matter?

Can we get back to talking about the GS and Hybrid Synergy Drive technology instead of hearing you argue about hybrids and why you think diesel's are like the next best thing to sliced bread...and why you will never buy either one of them? I think it's safe to say most everyone here is tired of your contradictory arguments.

biker

My father's '70 Olds Cutlass with a 350 cu in V8 and 2 barrel carburator got 30 MPG on the highway, was probably a 7s 0-60 car.

SecPole14

Porsche built the Cayenne because they couldn't afford not to. The company hasn't been doing too well financially, and intorducing an SUV was one of the only ways for them to avoid being purchased by, say, Toyota.

flipside909

What does that have to do with anything credible? "Probably" doesn't cut it. Can we focus on the 06 GS 450h please?

mmarshall

Excuse me for butting in, guys, but I'm going to have to address this one..........

No offense, biker, but I grew up with these late 60's-early 70's vintage cars. I could drive them in my sleep. Your 7-8 sec 0-60 time for a 350-2 Cutlass with a stock manual three-on the tree, three-on-the-floor, or four-on-the-floor is pretty accurate, ( about 8 sec. with the 3-speed Turbo-Hydra-Matic ), but 30 MPG on the highway? Sorry...I just don't believe it unless the carburator was way, WAY lean from a serious mixture-screw, choke, or accelerator-pump malajustment, bad fuel pump, or unless you shut the engine off coasting down some very long hills...which would be dangerous. If the carburator was that lean you would have had some serious trouble with pinging, overheating, hesitation, stalling, backfiring, and burned-up spark plugs. Remember....this was back before you had EFI, breakerless electronic ignition, and engine management computers that could compensate for and constantly adjust f - - ked up fuel mixture and spark timing.
A properly adjusted, serviced, and tuned 1970 Cutlass 350-2 without undue wear on the engine or tranny normally got about 12-14 MPG in the city on leaded 94-octane ( which was considered regular gas in those days......premium 100-octane leaded was usually reserved for the 4-barrel carbs and six-packs ) and from 17-20 MPG on the highway.

If your father HONESTLY got 30 highway MPG from a car like this in proper condition and driving habits, I just as honestly don't see how.

mmarshall

As far as the GS and alternative-powertrains are concerned, given the choice between hybrid gas-electric combos and diesels, I personally think diesels make more sense. Why? At present engineering levels, they offer roughly (not exactly) the same mileage as hybrids but with MUCH less complexity...no dual motors, heavy battery packs, advanced computers /electronics, etc.... and they are much less expensive to produce.
And I have never liked the idea of that huge battery pack behind the rear seat right over the rear fuel tank if it is ever ruptured in an accident or if there is sparking from the batteries near that fuel.

Diesel fuel is becoming readily available at more outlets...not just truck stops. And by EPA mandate we will start to have the clean, Euro-type low-sulfur diesel fuel here in the U.S. starting next year which will help one of the diesel's traditional problems...particulate emissions. Also helping emissions will be new urea-injection systems that engineers are working on. Even without these future advances, today's diesels are much cleaner, more powerful, easier to start in cold weather, reliable, and smooth and quiet-running than the POS diesels of 20-25 years ago that smelled, wouldn't start in cold weather, rattled like marbles, and belched out black soot. Many of those "diesels" weren't even true diesels to start with but converted gas engines....the GM 350 V8 diesel was far and away the worst.

And....today's diesels and turbo-diesels have T-O-R-Q-U-E...in some cases twice the torque of a gas-engine of the same displacement.

Not everyone is going to agree with this, I know, but that is the way I see it.

Itsuki_23

Todays diesel engines are more complex than ever, their are engineered to the limit. Diesel engines have been in production for about 100 years, what we are seeing today is very close to the limit diesels can go - diesel fuel itselt starts to limit the possibilities. Hybrid systems are making their first serious steps starting mid 90's - sky is the limit, endless possibilities to combine hybrid systems with any kind of combustion engines.

To show how complex new turbo diesels are: (By the way typical BMW - bragging with solutions that were used 10 years ago in twin turbo Supra - sequential turbos, different size, operating one alone or 2 together etc. ): http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cf...e/9/bmw/1.html

quote: Engine electronics required to control a turbocharged power unit are significantly more complex. A system comprising two superchargers, turbine control, bypass and wastegate has to be controlled, and not just a turbocharger with variable turbine geometry. The system elements have to be coordinated with each other and with the respective operating condition of the engine. A highly complex task, which could only be solved using state-of-the-art diesel electronics (DDE 6.0). It provides the required computing power and sufficient storage capacity to deal with processes adequately.

biker

I happen to remember the figure on a highway only ride (probably limited to 60mph) going up I87 from NY to Montreal. I'm probably rounding up a bit, but I'm pretty sure it was in the high 20s.

But enough of this hijacking of the thread.

Bottom line is this, if the 450H is 4K more than a GS350 (with same equipment) the milage gains won't offset the higher initial cost during the typical lease period of these cars(assuming $2 gal gas) and if the 450H is within a couple of tenths of the GS460 it will kill the GS460 sales.

Hm, what are the chances that Lexus will have a hybrid only, fully loaded vehicle at the top of the GS food chain?

biker

The new I6 gas engines from BMW are just as complex. The vvt-i engines from Toyota/Lexus are no simple mills either.

The limiting factor with hybrids is the battery pack - advancement there has been relatively slow.

Lexusfreak

Toyota has led the way in this department to the point where other auto makers are actually borrowing Toyota's technology.....what can I tell ya!?

flipside909

Bottom line is the Lexus GS450h will sell regardless. But you said it best just now.

spwolf

well, you guys do realize that Toyota is first company with production diesel hybrids? :-)
Start the thought there. Once diesel engines become a bit quieter, cost of dcat systems goes down you will see diesel hybrids in passanger cars as well.

As to performance - lets compare Echo and Prius
Echo weights some 800lbs less
Echo is much smaller
Echo is much much simpler
Echo has stronger gas engine (20 hp more!)

And what happens? Prius gets 10mpg more than Echo, and goes 2 secs faster 0-60 - thats in spite of 800lbs more weight (and size).

What will happen with performance of GS when you battery HSD adds only 200lbs, and engine stays the same? What about considerably better mileage at considerably better performance.

If you look at newly announced GS pricing, you will see that even adding 5k to base GS for HSD (which is a bit too much), it will be still cheaper than V8 option... cheaper, faster, and not only that - compared to V8 weight, it will be only slightly porkier!

What is there to lose? Thats what hybrid systems are right now - high tech, economical way to go FASTER!

----------------

Nothing wrong with diesels - they just are high pollutants though, and that is pretty important. Problem is that price of diesel engine with proper (and expensive cats) would add another 2k-3k to the price hybrid-diesel option and that gets pretty high in that case. Although, way Hybrids operate and their instant power would do wonders for Diesel technology and would eliminate turbo holes found today (dont let reviewers lie to you, every diesel has no power under 1.5k and goes strongly only up to some 3.5k).

Incendiary

I'll take one twin-turbocharged diesel hybrid to go, please.