So for this Lead Acid in my car (post #55 above) made by Panasonic specifically for Toyota/Lexus, what exactly is that blue color viewport indicating/hinting ?

The instructions just above the 60 A-h rating states that blue means ok, red means charging necessary and white means add distilled water. Together with the low CCA rating of only 345 Amps - does it give away anything about this battery, in terms of anyway being special ?

 

the viewport instructions are pretty standard for lead acid batteries.

the low CCA but relatively large size rating does seem more in line with deep cycle batteries. So the battery is more tuned for deep discharge rather than bursts of energy. That’s what I’d think fits better with every hybrid/plugin hybrid 12v battery use case…..so it’s odd the 350h seems to use a regular battery rather than deep cycle. But since it also went dead in your 450 that doesn’t seem to be enough.

 

If you went down the Rav4 rabbit hole then you'd find that even the Hybrids (i.e. non-plugins) get these low CCA batteries. So there doesn't seem to be much consistency between battery type vs. plugin/non-plugin:

Referring to Post# 18 in this thread: https://www.rav4world.com/threads/35...-label.321104/

 

that thread is a wealth of info! Thanks!

the pdf for MF batteries has some interesting claims, and the pulsed charging stuff makes sense too. So future battery replacement needs to be able to handle probably higher charge current than regular SLA batts. I think that still means AGM batts will work well, and same with LiFePO4 batts with a BMS. The “enhanced charging” SLA batts is probable the cheapest of these possible options, and seems Toyota/Lexus is just putting whatever is cheapest and most available that’ll work “good enough”.

 

Yes, even though the charging voltage supplied in the Lexus (i.e. 14.2 to 14.4 V) may seem low for the charging voltage quoted for (Odyssey) AGMs on their website - the lower internal resistance of ~ 2 - 3 mOhms of the AGMs would draw higher charging current at the 14.2 - 14.4 V charging voltage than would a SLA with ~ 20 mOhm internal resistance. So the low(er) charging voltage in Lexus would probably be more than compensated by the higher charging current in the AGM, due to the AGM's lower internal resistance - is my hypothesis. That'd explain how NX450plus' (if I remember the username right) use of the Odyssey AGM has given them much better results as reported in this forum - and Odyssey advertises its AGM as compatible with the NX450H+ on its website.

 

Anyone here tried the AntiGravity batteries? Its no doubt expensive but would never die becuse its a LiPo battery other than subzero temps.

Been following these threads for some time even though not an owner but 12V battery issues seem to plague all the Toyota and Lexus hybrids. The Prius 3rd Gen originally came with an Toyota OEM AGM battery and I replaced it with a Bosch AGM.

my 2 cents.

 

$1050 for the same 60 Ah is steep indeed. You can get regular 60 Ah H5 or 70 Ah H6 AGM from Clario for $180 at closest Walmart Supercenter or Costco.

I would be afraid to place a sizeable Li-Ion battery in passenger space unless it's sourced by a big automaker who knows what it is doing. Countless people have died in Li-Ion battery fires, like e-bikes charged at home. Quality control is hardly possible when a small company buys stuff on Chinese marketplace.

 

Yes, these arguments make an Odyssey AGM more palatable to me, if it can work well. It's in some sense safer than the Toyota/Lexus battery, as it is fully sealed with no venting necessary from the battery, which is a good thing in the passenger compartment. Its also from large enough brand with track record. And finally it has been reported to work by at least one user in this forum, better than the Toyota-stock battery in the 450H+. Its still $ 300 expensive, but if it works, its a pill I can swallow - given Lexus/Toyota will never fix this problem without a class-action lawsuit or NHTSA legal forcing.

 

they're not li-ion like your laptop or phone. they're LiFePO4, which has a lower power density but are extremely safe....puncture safe/overcharge safe/no runaway thermal safe.

I'm hoping all this research helps verify that a LiFePO4 batt will work, but I wouldn't necessarily go for the antigrav batts. They're designed as starter batteries, whereas the use for our hybrids better matches porbably those for solar panels or other deep-cycle charge cases. but yes, Antigravity batteries were on my list.

 

Interstate has AGM batteries and is fairly common. Usually cost ~$200 in the US. Both my Prius and Honda Odyssey came OEM with AGM batteries. Replaced Odyssey with Interstate AGM.

Since the battery is located in the rear of the Hybrids its more conducive for the LiPo 12V due to heat or lack thereof in this case but then it again it costs 5X more than a AGM.

Pick your poison so to speak

 

Since there is an inherent risk that a LiPo or an AGM may not work out longer term durability-wise, due to the lower-ish charging voltage on the Lexus, I would prefer to pick the cheaper poison

 

The same risk applies to any cheap classic flooded battery. Because current cars don't charge all the time when driving, they charge for short intervals only and then keep voltage at 12.7V or so. The battery is expected to charge quickly once it gets ~13.5-14.4V, and it's not lowerish voltage nor it's specific to Lexus, it just isn't provided for long like in old cars. Check note about YUASA MF series.
EFB or AGM batteries are designed to accept charge quicker, they have lower internal resistance.

Now about the cost. There are few options of H5 batteries on e.g. walmart. AGM with 4 year replacement warranty for $180, Maxx with 3 year warranty for $160 marketed for "conventional vehicles with medium power demands", and then cheaper Plus & Value subpar options that are declared as outright unsuitable for a gadget loaded hybrid and may be dead within a year.
I don't see much point to save $20 when you don't even know if this Maxx is at least EFB. Unless you plan to sell the car soon.

Then of course if the car & battery are under warranty, let the dealer to provide proper OEM battery if it fails early.

AGM may have issue with older powerful wall chargers as they may raise voltage too high to overcome high internal resistance in classic lead batteries. But it doesn't apply to car charging. Even if car doesn't push it to 100% state of charge, AGM is more tolerant to sulfation at partial charge, though it still suffers from it. Absorption voltage is not exactly the same for each specific AGM battery model either.

You should get bluetooth 5 battery monitor like Ancel BM300 Pro if you want to have peace of mind. Then maybe you will notice you have no problem at all unlike some others who had it unexpectedly. Or you will get phone notification to take action before jumstart is needed.

Plugins have different problem from 350h as far as I understand from other people posts, discharging 12V when plugged in.

 

You misunderstood. I meant lowerish relative to AGM's expected charging voltage, such as spec'd, for example, at Odyssey's H5 at 14.4 - 14.8 V. Folks who put the AGMs in their Toyota ICE trucks hack by putting in a forward-biased diode in the place of a fuse in the fuse box. The diode drops its forward bias voltage of 0.7 V and apparently fools the alternator into outputting about 0.7 V higher as charging voltage - numerous youtube videos and write-ups - feel free to go look. Again, to clarify, charging voltage of AGM vs. SLA per charging system design, not Lexus or old vs. new cars, or anything to that effect.

I'm not going to buy a cheap, vented Walmart AGM to put in the passenger compartment. If I go the AGM route, I will go with the Odyssey with is fully sealed with no venting port. Again, you misunderstood, I didn't mean relative cost between AGMs, but relative cost between AGM (~$ 300) vs. LiPo (~$ 1000)

No, I won't. I didn't buy a $76 K car so that I gain OCD from monitoring its design flaw. The reason I'm researching and discussing items with Naito in this thread is so that I may end up with a robust enough 12 V battery to not need a bluetooth battery monitor or external charging unless in very rare situations. Like its supposed to be from most non-Lexus cars, with robust 12 V charging subsystem design.

That's not correct. Its the same fundamental problem of undercharged 12 V battery subsystem. Lexus sells only plugins with all the bells and whistles possible, which makes the risk of battery death higher due to shorter tolerance for ACC mode, etc. There is no different problem.

 

ACC (accessory) mode is optional. Any car will discharge or shorten life of 12V battery if you get into habit of using ACC and leave it for too long.
The problem is you don't know when is the 12V is charging or not, what is the voltage or State Of Charge, if there is parasitic drain, or battery end of life, what exactly feature takes most power. Battery monitor helps until Toyota integrates it into the Lexus app. Otherwise this battery still occupies your mind and people come to weird ideas like not using remote start to preserve 12V battery.

I can tell for sure my 350h doesn't have any such 12V problem right now with all the "bells & whistles". So far. Meanwhile plugin drivers write about it all over the place.

AFAIK old easy hacks of forcing the old way of permanent charging don't work with recent cars. You would need to reprogram firmware. But for myself, why fix what is not broken.

 

So a small update, I took my car to the dealership for unrelated issues and mentioned about the battery, they ran a load test which it failed and are putting in a new battery under warranty. Once I get the car back I'll be sure to check the voltage of the new battery and see how it compares.