Bartman619

..Yes. If the Merc E63 and BMW M5 were towering home runs, the Lexus GSF effort is nothing but a Bunt.

1BlinkGone

IMHO the GS-F is a grossly misunderstood car by the American market. 'Overpriced' is in the eyes and wallet of the beholder. Americans have become so jaded by HP and Torque numbers alone. What about the sum total of the parts; but more importantly, what about the end result overall? I don't think many here understand what Japan accomplished with the GS-F because HP/TQ numbers pull too much weight with them and they have become a fixation. On top of that, I don't want the turbos, period. Added HP/Torque (and torque lag) be darned...

Personally, I can't wait to have a GS-F in my garage, and I'd much, MUCH rather have it than some of the other cars mentioned in this thread. I'll pay invoice+ on the current pricing; and I'll certainly buy if they dropped the price lower. In the latter case, the GS-F is a steal. YMMV, IMO, etc.

talltrini1

What's to misunderstand? They created a car that's woefully underpowered compared to everything else in its segment, while charging premium prices.
And if it IS misunderstood, whose fault is that? The consumer, or the manufacturer who can't seem to decide what they want in a flasghip sports sedan? I'm all for Japanese mystique and all, but that's not the case here. They swung and they missed, and sales are reflecting that.

DougHII

First, the car is not really that attractive. Looks a bit awkward. That is subjective.

No way in hades will this car ever lure those customers legitimately in the European oerformance sedan market. The sole potential market for this car is the Lexus fan that needs 4 doors, would like to have some with AMG, M, S or RS power, but is price conscious and not sure if the want to drop the extra $$$ to go from GS or ES to something that might be somewhat more entertaining.

Case in point . . . all of the responses above

Fact is, consumers truly in the European sport sedan market (those purchasing new) are not price price conscious, want the best, want the status symbol car and really don't care how much they cost. They get killed on depreciation or resell. They don't care. Most don't even use the power or drive the car at or near its limits. They don't care.

Reliability??? Who cares! It's new and has a warranty. Most of the Germans are pretty decent reliability wise until the warranty expires.

The high end German sedans are about status and having the best. Really doesn't matter what the GSF costs. It could be $70k and it still would not lure these purchasers away.

8spd

I see where you are coming from and to a small degree I agree with you.

If we take a look at the market for late model Ferrari with manual transmission, most notably the 599 and California, the prices are insane. For some purists out there, F1 and DSG gearbox be damned, give me a stick shift and nothing else. Of course very few late model Ferrari actually were ordered with a manual gearbox and only a handful of these cars are traded every year at these high prices.

A handful of cars being the key here and a Ferrari the GS F is not! While there are people that appreciate the characteristics of a NA V8, yours truly here included, the fact of the matter is that most buyers in this segment are after brand prestige (M, AMG or RS), power, and MORE POWER!

An aficionado, such as you and I may very much enjoy the GS F for what it is. But for me at least, the huge depreciation to come is a given, therefore unless it is at a fire sale price, I wouldn't even touch it with a 60 ft pole.

8spd

You are comparing the GS F to the market a notch above (i.e. M5, E63), but don't forget about the market a tad below it.

A fully loaded BMW 340i comes in at around $60,000 and can probably be had closer to 55K with discount and first 3 years of maintenance included (and yes, it used to be 4 years).

The GS F even with a 15K discount at $70,000 is going to have a hard time with a 340i or Mercedes C43 4Matic AMG costing 10-20K less depending on options and discounts.

Before people scream that they belong to a different market segment, how much performance edge does the GS F have over the 340i and C43? How much bigger is the GS really, compared to the 3er and C-Class.

For customers seeking value and brand prestige, these are solid alternatives to the GS F. Which puts the GS F between a rock and a really hard place.

1BlinkGone

I said nothing of 'Japanese mystique'. I said it's misunderstood by the majority of Americans that think it's all about HP and Torque stats. I personally don't care. That's not my driving factor or singular qualifier. For many, it is. We all have our own thoughts don't we? I'm not here to argue mine as I could care less if anybody agrees. Carry on.

ssmoked

Just curious, when are you going to pull the trigger on the GSF since you think it's a steal in every way?

KevinGS

When it drops to about $40-45k on the used car market, I will buy it, and own it for many years. By then, in 4 to 5 years, the grill won't look as ostentatious to me.

Until then, I'll probably be buying German cars, leasing them as high-priced rentals, and get every ounce of joy out of them.....pure driving pleasure. They typically hold up well for the first 100,000 miles.

I actually prefer the look of the GSF to the RCF (I just can't get over the face and the rear of the RCF, just not my style)....but I'm not buying a GSF at $85,000 when I can have hooligan fun in a C63s or M3/4.

But I'll be back to Lexus, when it's time to own again. I have a modded 2GS that I still love to drive, so that's all the Lexus I need for now.

Deven

I think the biggest problem is that the GS has always been squeezed from above and below and has become somewhat of a niche market car. In its hay day (1st and 2nd generation), it was 'the' mid size sports sedan that was the perfect balance. The E class and A series were really not that great, the 540 with manual transmission and V8 was probably the best overall car, but Lexus killed them all because of reliability. However ensuing years allowed the competition to catch up, with the AMG, S series versions from Audi, and even Cadillac putting corvette engines in their cars. The LS is the flagship car, the IS is for 'young' people. The ES satisfies the cost conscious and yet luxury brand appeal, and thus the GS is a car with no real demographic appeal except for enthusiasts. The GS-F suffers the same fate.

An example is the M3 especially in the 1st few generations. I bet 99% of non enthusiasts probably think it is a 3 series BMW. It has similar dimensions and looks pretty similar overall. However over decades, it has become better known. Other than the handful of enthusiasts, the average Lexus owner (the ones that buy ES and RX's) will look at the GS-F and think it is an overpriced GS series car with a noisy V8, and rough ride.

The GS-F also suffers from the fact that 'typically' most people that can afford the car, probably can afford to spend a more and get a Panamera S for example (or as other have mentioned an M5, or S6, or CTS V etc). However, at the same time, an enthusiast that wants a V8, but wants a reliable people mover, keep the car for a long time, and perhaps has a 'real' sports car (2nd or 3rd vehicle), the GS-F is actually perfect.

The GS-F will fail in sales if the plan was to lure GS350 f-sport buyers to this vehicle. If you are trying to lure back some of the people who had their fun with the AMG, M5, S6's etc. and now want something more refined, reliable, but still once in a while have some fun, then I think they will succeed.

Perceived value is relative, and the Lexus enthusiast will see the GSF as overpriced. If the entire market feels the same, then they have a problem.

BKGSF

Just out of curiosity, have you actually driven all of those cars? I was underwhelmed in real life after driving the M5 and E63. I didn't know 560 hp could be that boring. Not only that, E63 had CEL within couple hours! I'm never going back to AMG again. I guess Lexus could've made a twin turbocharged 600hp GS F that's monster on paper but dull and mute in actual life. By no means I'm trying to say GS F is perfect, I won't mind 50 more hp, but it is a legitimate alternative to the M and AMG.

neilsarkar

Just FYI, I drove GS-F and S6 back to back - and S6 is definitely more sedate and refined of the group. Old brand perceptions do not apply any more.

jmtamu

This says it perfectly. I will take delivery next week of my new M5, but I would even take a M Sport 550i over the GS-F any day. The fact that the GS-F doesn't even compete with the M, S, V, and AMG is just pathetic on the part of Lexus.

Then it will fail miserably. The power is so bad compared to the those others, that it's not even on the radar of the owners of those cars. Go read any BMW, Audi, or CTS-V forum and nobody even mentions the GS-F as an alternative. Hoping that owners of those cars will want to downgrade and not just do so by moving to alternative product within the current brand is a losing strategy for Lexus. If you could short GS-F stock, I would do so comfortably.

I've got to admit, you are the first person on the internet that I have ever seen refer to the M5 and E63 as boring. On top of that, you then pivot to make it seem like the GS-F is more fun to drive.

Frog98

Aggie Logic

Atrain302

It seems like a lot of people are hung up on paper statistics without even driving most of the cars being mentioned. Is the GSF overpriced? Maybe, but It depends on the buyer and what they want out of a car. Also, have there even been any comparison tests between the GSF and its competition to know how it really stacks up? This sounds a lot like all the talk about how the RCF was a disappointment on paper when if first came out then in the first comparison with the M4 it ran a near identical lap time to everyone's surprise. From what initial car reviewers are saying the GSF is a major step above the RCF.