Vladi

Remember F-Sport will be available on 450h too. I doubt that hybrid will carry a supercharger.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

if they are going to make a sub GS350 car it needs to be a GS300 (245 hp), not a GS250. IS250 needs to get changed to the IS300

rominl

iTrader: (4)

but seriously, why go with dinan when there will be other companies making the chip to get the same or even more power and there is always a way to revert back and no trace of modification? 335 crowd knows it best.

honest at this point i just don't see lexus attaining the kind of level bmw has from aftermarket. the crowd is just too different to warrant as much support.

fsport is just about suspensions and related changes, it's not going to make the car faster. since it's hybrid already, i am not sure if you can add another supercharger on top even if it's available now if lexus has chip, wow that's a new world!

Justin2JZ

I just really hope that they do a major powertrain update like with the 3GS because other than styling I think that the 4GS now is a big joke. I've been trying to look at the positives in the 4GS but Lexus just keeps on taking steps back. If Lexus keeps on disappointing especially with the F Sport and the GS-F, us car enthusiast's are not gonna take the 4GS seriously. If you guys really think Lexus is gonna produce a 520+ hp GS-F, you're just setting yourselves up for disappointment. I've always stood by Lexus' side and I've always had a optimistic outlook on their products but if they fail to deliver this time, a lot of people including me are going to be moving on to different auto makers. Its unfortunate but true.

Just my 2 cents.

Mr. Burns

It's a niche market. For BMW it's mandatory to enter since they've built their entire brand around performance, for everyone else it's all fun and games.

If you're an "enthusiast" buy a BMW, it's what they do. You may want to look at Audi and Infiniti as well though one is still using FWD/AWD and the other can't quite match the Bimmers.

If Lexus wants to I think they could easily make a 4GS-F, the problem is justifying it in terms of market appeal and potential sales. Is it worth it for them to go all out and create an M5 fighter only to attract a tiny number of customers while everyone else buys the M5 anyway? I think that's what they're struggling with and I doubt internal market research is helping the cause.

For now the advantages of the GS350 over the 535i are the following:

Cheaper
More powerful
Lighter
Faster
Naturally aspirated engine
But just as good fuel economy
Better interior (materials and execution)
Better executed exterior (in terms of fit and details)
Better build quality
Better reliability

Compared to the 550i the GS450h is just a few tenths of a second slower but with huge fuel economy gains in addition to some of the points above.

Lexus has always made luxury cars for those who are practically oriented, the 4GS is no different. On that level neither the 535i nor the 550i make much sense compared to the GS350 and GS450h. Sitting in traffic and commuting to work you're not going to notice or care much about those extra tenths of a second. But you will care about the better fuel economy and reliability not to mention the quality of the interior you're sitting in. However if you want that extra bit of excitement and prestige at the expense of practical factors then that's why they make BMWs.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i would say this is quite biased.

so they made the isf and lfa just for fun with no intention to development a performance line? this is with millions and millions dumped on the lfa?

gs350 vs 535
- i have driven the 535, to me it's just as fast as the gs350. more powerful and faster don't apply to me to put the gs350 ahead
- there are fit and finish issues on 535 exterior?

remotely putting the 550i and 450h together is totally out of place. might as well put the gs350 in the talk because it's also just "a few tenths of a second slower" than the 550i. 0-60 is pointless when it comes to high performance cars, people need to realize that. any freeway speed and the 550i will blow the 450h away. yes, i have pushed the new 550i hard before and i knew it first hand.

i will agree that lexus tends to make cars that make more practical sense (thus why they have been relatively boring in general). nothing wrong with that. but this is the gs, SPORT SEDAN. especially with the es taking care of the boring "making sense" segment, i think this car should be about performance and fun. even lexus said it themselves before regarding the 4gs. well so far i think we read that they took care of the fun to drive part. the performance part? honestly i still see the ball on the ground -- dropped.

Mr. Burns

How has the IS-F been doing in terms of sales? I bet that has some influence on the future GS-F. The LFA was Toyoda's pet project and a halo for the brand. They have a performance line but I think they're hesitant on expanding it too rapidly. I guess we need to take a step back and ask if "performance" fits in with the Lexus brand, one built around quality, isolation, luxury and refinement. Why would anyone buy a GS-F over an M5?

As for the GS350 I was talking about the 4GS350 which none of us have driven. However from official 0-60 estimates they are very close and I'd wager the 4GS350 would be faster by a hair (it is faster than the 3GS350). Not it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but the poster I responded to was calling it a "joke". Hardly.

BMW exterior fit and finish has never been great from my experience. It was particularly bad with the last gen 5er, I don't think there was one I found without a misaligned trunk lid, plus panel gaps larger than on Hondas. I'm not sure about the new 5:



Note how the panels come together, as well as the plastic seam running down the headlight (you won't find that on a GS). I just don't see this area as a big concern for BMW in general as it is for Lexus. By exterior details I mean this (hey another plastic seam!):




Again probably not a big deal for everyone, but that has been a traditional Lexus forte. BMW takes a different approach and has a different focus.

Also I'm not saying the 4GSh will be faster or stronger than a 550i. I'm saying performance will be more than adequate for even spirited driving and the fuel economy gains are huge. The 550i offers improved performance, but is that worth losing almost 10mpg? If so that's why they make BMWs. If not there is the 450h.

The 4GS by all indications and preview drives will be very fun to drive, much improved over the outgoing model and over the ES. What it won't be for the time being is a luxo-muscle car. There will be no sub-5 second V8 version, no $3000 chip that adds 100hp and the "F" model is years away (if they even build it) and probably would fall short of the Germans anyway (unless they find a way to shoehorn the LFA V10 in).

Anyways what I'm trying to say is that if the traditional Lexus strengths appeal to you, then buy a Lexus. If BMW's strengths appeal to you, buy a BMW. I find it pointless to expect Lexus to build a BMW but with an L badge on the grill. People would just buy the BMW anyway.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

isf is selling just fine i think. of course nothing like is250, but to me pretty respectful. why buy gsf over m5? come on, why buy e63 over m5? why buy isf over m3? m cars are good but they are not god. i drive a m3 every day so i guess i am qualified to say that m cars are great on performance, but some people want a good blend of different things. they want good performance, but willing to compromise a little and get better interior, better audio system, etc... the exact same reason why cars like rs4, rs6, c63, e63, etc... exist. if they exist and sell just fine, to me there is absolutely zero reason why lexus can't be in that game.

i agree with you the 4gs350 (and 3gs350 for that matter) is not a joke in terms of performance, it's very respectable.

don't even get me started on fit and finish on lexus for the past 5 years. i don't want to get into another debate but they have dropped in that department for sure. a lot of the 3gs i have seen (no accidents) their bumper gaps have some difference. e60 fit and finish was so-so, but f10 is far improvement imho. and of course, don't even get me started on 3gs interior quality and finish

and again my point is simple. i am not saying the 4gs wont' be fun to drive. i will talk about that when i actually get to drive it. however in terms of speed, with today's standard (keyword, today), the 4gs450h is not really considered very impressive anymore, and it's a big gap with today's v8 competitors, so to me it can't even be the car for that kind of comparison at all

i don't think it's pointless to expect more from lexus. as mentioned it's lexus themselves who said they want to make a car that's more sporty and fun to drive. that spirit is awesome imho. if that doesn't mean they are trying to chase after bmw, i don't know what else can indicate that.

and on the other hand i definitely don't want (or need) lexus to become bmw. lexus has to have their own thing. however they still have to be competitive, otherwise they are like playing their own game (dangerous). don't tell me they never tried to compete. ever since the 2gs, look at their commercials against bmw and audi. look at their power numbers and how it compete. bottom line, they want to compete. just that on the 4gs generation, i don't know what they want to compete to competitors' v8

Mr. Burns

I definitely agree that from 2006+ models Lexus really dropped the ball and lost their focus on fit, finish, interior build, materials quality etc... and I attribute it to the problems they're facing now. Having said that though it seems like they have refocused their efforts in those areas, the stunning 4GS interior being a good example. I'm not saying the new 5er is bad in this area, but I'm willing to bet the new GS offers more for those who care about this stuff. Either way it is an area that Lexus needs to be a cut above in because it has been a traditional strength that people attribute to the brand - just like what performance is to BMW.

With the 4GS Lexus has delivered an LS but in a smaller, lighter and more nimble package. I'd be willing to bet that the 4GS350 will be a better all round car than the 535i and that you're getting more car and a better car overall for your money - which is a principle on which Lexus was founded.

As for the powertrains I think Lexus would have put in a V8 into the 4GS if they had a decent one around. But the old V8 was not competitive and they can't give a new one to the GS before the LS gets it. The only option is thus to "kill" it, although I'm not convinced of that. I think eventually the 4GS will get a V8 of some sort - be it in a standard model or in an F model. Speed is not supposed to be the impressive part of the 4GS450h, fuel economy is. Relative to V8s yes the performance is lagging, but bring the fuel economy you get with that performance into the equation and I think it will be a very appealing package. It will not replace V8s though.

But I don't think Lexus needs to emphasize performance like BMW emphasizes performance, and this includes the aftermarket. They just will not win that marketing battle, Infiniti learned it the hard way. Fun to drive? Sure. M3 and M5 killers? They should be nothing more than icing on the cake when the cake itself has been perfected. I just do not want to see the entire lineup shift from what Lexus has traditionally been to BMW clones.

blacksc400

iTrader: (4)

What I don't understand is, since 3GS460, why not just make it the same as the LS, 380HP and 8speed?

rominl

iTrader: (4)

on that topic, no one has the exact answer but there are a few rumors

1) everyone knows they had trouble fitting the 460 setup in the 3gs chassis (big mistake). the gs460 doesn't have the kind of dual intake setup like the ls460. some wonders if that affects anything

2) lexus wanted to push for their hybrid as the most powerful version. that idea was clear. the 3gsh is pushing 340hp. and with their mindset, it would be completely stupid to have a 3gs460 that pushes 380hp. so the only way is to detune it down to the same level

for the 4gs to have v8, i don't agree that lexus doesn't have a good v8 at this point. the 460 engine is totally fine as is. 380hp imho is pretty competitive for now already. keep in mind the e550 is also putting 382hp on the table for now, until their new tt setup that comes a bit later. plus, we all know the 460 engine is powerful and they can easily get more power out of it. just look back into history and we see that gs430 had more hp than the ls430. that didn't affect anything