GSing430

i believe the avalon is front wheel drive versus the GS rear wheel drive, so the 0-60 plays a different times.

LexFather

Its getting a lil long on the tooth with everyone saying something looks like something looks like something........

akbergq

I do think that even with some similarites , they are two different cars with two different buying groups.


However, i do believe that between the ES330. and the Avalon. The buyer considernig an ES330 would bode well goign with the Avalon instead. On a base standard limited avalon to a base standard ES330, the choice is clear : Avalon lmited. Why? You are dishing out the exact same amoutn of money. You are getting a full size car clearly larger in every scope of dimension. You get more features and gizmos standard .. (smartaccess - a BIG one.) The buyer wishing to spend low 30s and getting a decent entry level luxury car would have done extremely well goign witht he ES330,...but now however there is a more precise and logical choice...the avalon. You get a luxury delivering vehicle with full size space with more features and power for the exact same cost.


perforated leather seats with ventilation
Hi density discharge lamps with auto leveling
Smartaccess system with push button ignition and illuminated entry
280 horsepower
3.5L V6 Dual VVT-i with ECT-i
22/31 EPA fuel economy estimate
tilt telescoping steering
Multiinformational display
your comfort and standard safety airbag equipement
rain sensing wipers
dual zone climate control
wood grain interior on console steering shifter and door panels
reclining seats
JBL synthesis 12 speaker 360watt sound system claimed absolutely amazing by edmunds.
and more!

dimensions 197 length 73 width wheel base 111 ENORMOUS interior room in front and rear for passengers.

If you bring the ES330, it may have those features equipped too but doing an aaples to apples compariosn, falls short. Yes the ES330 will look more upscale inside, and a more refined finish. This interior and exterior on the avalon is not shabby at all! Instead of stepping into a nameplate for lexus name and service and more refined cosmetic work, how abotu stepping to a GREt full size luxury sedan from toyota and heap the benfits of its amenities that are an amazing value????? If you dont care about the L badge, you need to get the avalon and call it a day! For onyl 33K?????? 2005 Motor trends car of the year anybody?

Sandman

Forgot about that! Yes FWD may account for a tick or 2.

But don't forget that there are a lot of "pullers" (FWD) that get some amazing acceleration numbers, like the Acua TL. And on the extreme side the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution achieving mid 4 second sixties. Crazy!

As for how this engine could work in the GS I also guess it would depend on if it were tuned to 280HP or upwards of 320HP as some have suggested are possible. Whether it made business sense or not is another issue, but this engine could possibly obsolete the 430 by itself if tuned high enough - even without the hybrid addition. Fun to think about....

If anyone here can read Japanese I'd like to know what www.lexus.jp is saying about the GS350 in Japan. I have looked at the site but can make much out of it. I do have some business associates in Japan - I ought to ask them to translate for me...

Sandman

I think you make some good arguments. The Avalon does have some compelling value and may end up stealing some of the more "value oriented" buyers. And the Avalon does seem to be including a lot of luxury. Those who are more into prestiege or the ultimate refinement may still chose the ES. I guess this raises the bar and the good thing is that we can probably expect more in the ES in the near future. I would guess that Toyota has studied the impact of this overlap and is okay with the big picture. Better to keep a buyer focused on the difficult decision between Toyota and Lexus than on the decision between Acura and Lexus for example.

Rockville

The ES330 is at the end of the design cycle. The Avalon at the beginning. I too believe that the Avalon is formidable competition to Lexus even if it is all in the family. It has a shorter warranty. The spacious interior doesn't have the Yamaha finished wood like the Lexus. It doesn't give you the Luxury of a Lexus Dealership experience either. That being said the new ES350 will arrive next spring as a 2007 model and then we will have apples to apples for comparison. I'm sure Lexus has actuaries that figure it's model sales strategies so I'm not going to judge but I would have liked to have had the first crack at the 3.5 liter engine. I'm still wondering when the GS350 will be introduced? I do know that the GS450h will use the 3.5 liter and the '07 RX350 and ES350 and of course the IS350. Maybe it all depends on the sales numbers of the GS300.......

rominl

iTrader: (4)

well, seriously, they pull al they want, they still can't turn well that's my conclusion after driving all the rwd and fwd cars of this size

Sandman

I definately like the overall feel of RWD over FWD. When accelerating, weight naturally transfers to the rear. In FWD cars it is so much easier to get wheel spin - which can feel like fun but lacks performance composure - and acceleration suffers. FWD cars also tend to have a larger turning radius than a similar sized RWD car. The GS can make espeically tight turns at ~36ft. I think I remember the new RL close to 40ft! Tires have a "traction budget." When that budget has to get shared between forward motion and steering then performance suffers. I also don't like the nose heavy feel of FWD cars.

With that said, I'm often surprised at just how close (some) FWD cars are to RWD cars in the slalom. Is 1 mph in the slalom really something that is going to make a difference in daily driving - even for aggressive drivers? And on the skidpad, tires can make a very big difference - sometimes more than which wheels are driving.

Road & Track reports in their Road Test Summary (Feb 2005) that the Acura TL beats the BMW 330i in the slalom, skidpad and braking. Ties it in the quarter mile. Beats the BMW 530 in all of these categories. Which one gets called the "Ultimate Driving Machine?

The numbers are important but the way it feels when driven is more important. (Which supports what you are saying).

rominl

iTrader: (4)

the new TL handles pretty well that's for sure. and seriously if you talk about fwd handling, honda is pretty good. their rsx, tl, tsx, and the old integra, all handle pretty good.

my main problem with fwd cars are the tq steer, and the serious understand when taking hard turns. that's just inherent problems that no matter how well they do, the problem still exists

i still remember the old tl-s i had, man one time i make a hard turn turn, i almost crashed the car. i couldnt' turn it more coz' of understeer (and the car continued to slide out), and if i did, the rear would lose it

it's sometimes feelings i guess