I give up (on trying to use a hydraulic jack) -- WITH PIX
12-06-06, 08:33 AM
#46
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However, whereas the OEM jack has a deep groove in the lift plate that snuggles around the pinch weld, the hydraulic jack does not. I was concerned that by positioning the hydraulic jack right on the pinch weld, the pinch weld would bend due to the weight of the car. So, to be absolutely sure, I went to Lexus and asked the service guys to show me exactly where to jack up the car, which they gladly did, and here's how that little piece of advice worked out for me:
So, I was pretty livid at that point because I lifted the car exactly where Lexus told me to lift it, and it resulted in a nice dent (albeit purely cosmetic) in the sheet metal on the underside of the car. I was about ready to give up on the damn hydraulic jack and go back to the OEM jack when a light bulb went off. What if I did this:
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So, for the past 6 months or so, whenever I need to jack up the car, I simply put the grooved piece of wood on top of the hydraulic jack plate and lift the car on the pinch weld. The groove down the center of the wood accommodates the pinch weld, and the teeth of the hydraulic jack plate actually sink into the underside of the wood. This set up worked well, that is, until tonight.
As I was jacking up one of the front corners, I heard two distinct pops and out from beneath the car shot this:
What is that, you ask? It's one of several retaining clips that holds the side skirt in place. There are 6 or 7 of them that run along the underside of the skirt, and apparently I've successfully broken off 3 of them (and I'm proud to say that it's one of my few success stories in working on the car).
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I stopped by Discount Tire and asked them how they would lift the car to rotate the tires, they said they would use the pinch weld. Their jacks have a big cup on them, so I asked how they keep from damaging the surrounding metal and the pinch weld tabs. He pointed to his stack of block pads. These things were thick (maybe four inches or so). They may have different sizes, but the ones I saw were big. They have cross and straight groves in them, but only like a 1/8” deep. That would put the entire load on the pinch weld tab not the area around it. That makes since to me. My question is, were do you get those pads?
I looked under my car last night and looked at the pinch welds. Lexus is the only one so far that has lifted this car. I can see marks were they lifted the car from all the points, so that is what the dealer uses (except the time I saw the tie down hooks being used).
Has anyone seen a pinch weld fail or fold over? Lexus’ pinch weld sure look flimsy compared to other cars I have owned. If I have a flat, I sure do not want to use that scissor jack. Has any one notice it mashing against and denting anything?
12-06-06, 08:28 PM
#51
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Nope. I stripped it with the OEM wrench with a 20 inch pipe slid over it for extra leverage. Lexus had just changed out my rear shocks and had overtorqued the lug nuts, If I had to guess, I would say they were torqued to well over 100 ft-lbs.
12-06-06, 08:34 PM
#52
Pole Position
Thread Starter
It appears your board grove is deep and is not lifting from the pinch weld but the area around the pinch weld (soft material / molding / running board). Seems to be the same issue I see with the 06 GS430 scissor Jack, but not as much surface area. 55k car and this is the best Lexus could do?
However, the pinch weld is what Lexus states as the lift point.
I stopped by Discount Tire and asked them how they would lift the car to rotate the tires, they said they would use the pinch weld. Their jacks have a big cup on them, so I asked how they keep from damaging the surrounding metal and the pinch weld tabs. He pointed to his stack of block pads. These things were thick (maybe four inches or so). They may have different sizes, but the ones I saw were big. They have cross and straight groves in them, but only like a 1/8” deep. That would put the entire load on the pinch weld tab not the area around it. That makes since to me. My question is, were do you get those pads?
I looked under my car last night and looked at the pinch welds. Lexus is the only one so far that has lifted this car. I can see marks were they lifted the car from all the points, so that is what the dealer uses (except the time I saw the tie down hooks being used).
Has anyone seen a pinch weld fail or fold over? Lexus’ pinch weld sure look flimsy compared to other cars I have owned. If I have a flat, I sure do not want to use that scissor jack. Has any one notice it mashing against and denting anything?
However, the pinch weld is what Lexus states as the lift point.
I stopped by Discount Tire and asked them how they would lift the car to rotate the tires, they said they would use the pinch weld. Their jacks have a big cup on them, so I asked how they keep from damaging the surrounding metal and the pinch weld tabs. He pointed to his stack of block pads. These things were thick (maybe four inches or so). They may have different sizes, but the ones I saw were big. They have cross and straight groves in them, but only like a 1/8” deep. That would put the entire load on the pinch weld tab not the area around it. That makes since to me. My question is, were do you get those pads?
I looked under my car last night and looked at the pinch welds. Lexus is the only one so far that has lifted this car. I can see marks were they lifted the car from all the points, so that is what the dealer uses (except the time I saw the tie down hooks being used).
Has anyone seen a pinch weld fail or fold over? Lexus’ pinch weld sure look flimsy compared to other cars I have owned. If I have a flat, I sure do not want to use that scissor jack. Has any one notice it mashing against and denting anything?
By the way, Chuck, thanks for the diagrams. I'm really hoping that some day one of the experts will take some close-up pictures of how it's actually done.
12-07-06, 08:27 AM
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BTW, they way they do things does not mean it is the best way
12-07-06, 08:44 AM
#54
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The OEM Jack is not specifically designed for this car. I wonder how many Toyota cars come with the same POS. I figure that grove is more for user safety than protection of the car. As I stated before, the dealer used metal pad contacted at pinch weld tab, not the area around it. If you do not mind a little mark or paint pinched off, metal on metal will be fine. However, if you want to protect the finish using a hard pad will do that.
The metal pad they used at the dealer was similar to these:
They made very little surface contact with the pinch weld. Your jack most likely will make more contact than these.
Here is a car on a lift at a dealer. Can not see the mount they are using, but it is very apparent they are using the recommended lift point which is the pinch weld tab.
I’m trying to do this type of thing for the floor jack:
If the pad bends around a significant amount which I do not think it will, place a flat steel plate between the pad or hockey puck and the jack:
No folding.
The dealer did not use a mount like this, and I would not suggest it either on this car with the deep grove.
Now, were can I get those Discount Tire Pads!
The metal pad they used at the dealer was similar to these:
They made very little surface contact with the pinch weld. Your jack most likely will make more contact than these.
Here is a car on a lift at a dealer. Can not see the mount they are using, but it is very apparent they are using the recommended lift point which is the pinch weld tab.
I’m trying to do this type of thing for the floor jack:
If the pad bends around a significant amount which I do not think it will, place a flat steel plate between the pad or hockey puck and the jack:
No folding.
The dealer did not use a mount like this, and I would not suggest it either on this car with the deep grove.
Now, were can I get those Discount Tire Pads!
12-07-06, 05:47 PM
#55
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Hey GS. Great pics. Here's the thing I still don't understand, though. If you use a rubber pad on the hydraulic jack plate and lift the car on the pinch weld, won't the pad/hydraulic jack plate be teetering on the pinch weld? In other words, at some point, the pad/plate is going to roll one way or the other and there will be a second point of contact on the car (either on the side skirt side, or more likely on the other side, of the pinch weld). Do you see what I'm getting at here?
12-07-06, 06:54 PM
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I understand what you are saying, but do no see that happening if the pad is placed correctly on the lift cup/plate. If the material is not hard enough, I can see it cutting it though.
Last edited by GS2006; 12-07-06 at 06:57 PM.
12-08-06, 06:08 AM
#57
The pinch weld is deffinatelly not the safest place if you want to keep all your plastic and body intact. It can work on a lift, beacause that will get your car up staticly, as in the car won't lean one way or the other, or forward or back, and the lift deffinatelly doesn't slide when lifting. This DOES NOT apply to a floor jack. Everything is loose and keeps moving. You guys need to avoid using the pinch weld, especiall with the floor jack. The stock jack is meant for that because it is meant for every idiot to be able to use it, and Lexus can't really copy the more superior jack-system from BMW.
The only time I have ever seen the pinch weld being use at any shop, was at the body shot. Where they would clamp rails, 2 of them, the whole lengh of the car, while on the frame machine. I have never seen it before, well other than that picture above, but thats Lexus, and a lift.
The only time I have ever seen the pinch weld being use at any shop, was at the body shot. Where they would clamp rails, 2 of them, the whole lengh of the car, while on the frame machine. I have never seen it before, well other than that picture above, but thats Lexus, and a lift.
12-08-06, 06:48 AM
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The pinch weld is deffinatelly not the safest place if you want to keep all your plastic and body intact. It can work on a lift, beacause that will get your car up staticly, as in the car won't lean one way or the other, or forward or back, and the lift deffinatelly doesn't slide when lifting. This DOES NOT apply to a floor jack. Everything is loose and keeps moving. You guys need to avoid using the pinch weld, especiall with the floor jack. The stock jack is meant for that because it is meant for every idiot to be able to use it, and Lexus can't really copy the more superior jack-system from BMW.
The only time I have ever seen the pinch weld being use at any shop, was at the body shot. Where they would clamp rails, 2 of them, the whole lengh of the car, while on the frame machine. I have never seen it before, well other than that picture above, but thats Lexus, and a lift.
The only time I have ever seen the pinch weld being use at any shop, was at the body shot. Where they would clamp rails, 2 of them, the whole lengh of the car, while on the frame machine. I have never seen it before, well other than that picture above, but thats Lexus, and a lift.
Have you been to Discount Tire? They do it all day long day in and day out. If you are careful, I do not see a problem. What shops are you referring that use other points that are not specified by the manufacture?
12-08-06, 06:55 AM
#59
Discount tire uses a lift. One more time, same thing, and should not be applied to a floor jack. Lets put it this way. I go to a lot of shops, spend quite some time there, I have more tools in my garage than some shops, trust me, I know how to lift a car, and have never used the pinch weld. Even if you put one of those past on a floor jack, it is a matter of time before it slips, and breaks something. Now immagine a floor jack with that rubber mount on it, I might not even clear the GS sideskirt.
12-08-06, 07:01 AM
#60
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Slick was kind enough to send me a few pictures of some alternate jack points.
For the rear, there is this trapezoidal piece of metal on each side just in front of the rear wheels that you can use. It has a circular hole in it, and there is enough room just in front of the circular hole for the lift plate of the hydraulic jack. I've used it once and it works, although you still need to find a place to put the jack stand if you're going to use one.
For the front, everyone keeps talking about the cross member, but I still don't know what that is. There are these two rails, though, that run from just behind the front wheels to just in front of the rear wheels. At the front of the car, they are plenty strong (not so in the rear, though, which is where I dented the car in the picture above). If you position the hydraulic jack plate all the way forward on that rail, you can put a jack stand right behind it.
Guys, this topic is really of utmost importance in terms of all of our safety. Once we get it all sorted out, we should really put up a sticky with pictures. As our cars are getting older and out of warranty, more and more of us are doing our own maintenance and tinkering with things and we all should know the best and safest places to lift the car from.
For the rear, there is this trapezoidal piece of metal on each side just in front of the rear wheels that you can use. It has a circular hole in it, and there is enough room just in front of the circular hole for the lift plate of the hydraulic jack. I've used it once and it works, although you still need to find a place to put the jack stand if you're going to use one.
For the front, everyone keeps talking about the cross member, but I still don't know what that is. There are these two rails, though, that run from just behind the front wheels to just in front of the rear wheels. At the front of the car, they are plenty strong (not so in the rear, though, which is where I dented the car in the picture above). If you position the hydraulic jack plate all the way forward on that rail, you can put a jack stand right behind it.
Guys, this topic is really of utmost importance in terms of all of our safety. Once we get it all sorted out, we should really put up a sticky with pictures. As our cars are getting older and out of warranty, more and more of us are doing our own maintenance and tinkering with things and we all should know the best and safest places to lift the car from.