e-man

Mods -- I know I started a separate thread about this, but I need to start a fresh thread on this topic for insurance purposes. Could you please just close the other thread? Thank you.

Guys. I really need your help on this one. If anyone has anything to add, whether based on your experience, opinion, or whatever, please chime in. Here are the facts:

Monday -- rock chips windshield
Wednesday -- cracks spider out from chip in multiple directions
Friday -- windshield replaced (PPG brand)
Monday -- While cleaning the windshield, I notice a perfectly straight crease in the roof of my car. It begins just above the windshield (about 3 inches to the passenger side of center) and runs straight back (at a 90 degree angle to the windshield) to the front of the moonroof. There is no impact mark, and no scratching or chipping of the paint. The crease appears to be perfectly uniform in depth.
Tuesday -- I take the car to Lexus to inspect the crease. They inspect the entire roof, including behind the moonroof.
Thursday -- Another crease appears on the roof of the car behind the moonroof. The crease is perfectly straight and exactly in line with the crease on the front part of the roof. The crease starts about 3-4 inches behind the moonroof and runs about 8-10 inches straight back. Just like the first crease, there is no impact mark, and the paint is not chipped or scratched. This crease is also of perfect uniform depth.

Here are a few additional facts. When the windshield company replaced the windshield, I watched the entire job from start to finish. Prior to starting the job, the tech performed a thorough inspection of the front part of the roof to make sure that there was no damage there prior to installation. The tech has stated, on the record, that he is absolutely certain that crease #1 was not there when he installed the new windshield. Moreover, Lexus is absolutely certain that crease #2 was not there when they inspected crease #1.

The glass company is saying that they did nothing wrong. Lexus is pointing the finger at the glass company. My insurance company is saying that the new windshield has absolutely nothing to do with the creases. Based on the above, the insurance company concludes that there were 2 impacts to the roof of my car, two days apart, that left 2 perfectly straight creases of uniform depth, perpendicular to the windshield and moonroof, on a perfect line, without scratching or chipping the paint, without damaging the windshield, the moonroof, or the molding around the windshield or the moonroof. Moreover, the insurance company agrees that for their theory to hold water, the object that impacted the front part of the roof had to be the EXACT same length as the distance between the windshield and the moonroof, and had the perfect curvature to conform with the curvature of the front part of the roof of the car. The insurance company's solution is to pay to have a paintless dent repair company take out the creases (at their cost).

I am the only person who drives the car. There certainly wasn't any impact while I was driving it, much less two impacts. Moreover, the car is garaged on both ends of my daily commute (at home in my attached garage and at work in a private garage beneath the building).

Does anyone have ANY thoughts whatsoever?

EDIT: I am going to wait for a few more responses before I respond.

Spyder78

iTrader: (7)

let them take it out with PDR and when I creases come back we'll see how they'll get out of that one. I believe that it has to do with a support issue associated with the windshield and the roof. Good luck and I hope that the PDR solves it if not than I guess insurance is gonna be paying for a little more than PDR.

salimshah

This is just a theory ...

Earlier the windshield was part of the strucural strength (and was under stress) and kept the top of your gs from creasing in.

Rock chip cracked the windsheild and the rapid break up indicates there was a stress on the windshield.

The new windshield glue has a give till it cures fully possibly oen of the two or both happened
1. Driving (increased torsion) wihout the structural rigidity of the new windshield caused the roof to crease.
2. The static (all four wheel on flat surface) torsion was large enough to crease the roof.

crease behind moon roof: The stress finally stabalized after creasing the back portion.
If you had left the car as is, with broken windsheild, the crease would have appeared in couple of days (that is if my theory is correct).


I can not think of any reason (installer did not rest the glass on top of the roof where you have a crease) where the crease is due to the negligance or faulty installation of the windsheild. Leaks afterwords and scratches during the install would be the things caused by the installation. I can not think of how stress can be introduced during install as the glue will surely give.

About dentless repair: My suggestion would be to wait a few more days so that the whole structure reaches equilibrium. Then proceed with repair.

Unaswered question: So did the structural stress existed from day of manufacture? I would say it got introduced after the orignal glass was set. Collison, bumps, suspension-change (which is not necessarily bad) but some after market product may not have the right give ... I am really streatching here ..

Good luck.

Salim

bob2200

Interesting. I had it work the opposite way with my RX. After repairing dents on the roof, the windshield developed a crack less than a week later. The body shop said it was a delayed result of the roof damage, but I suspect it was the result of the body work. Anyway, insurance covered it as part of the initial damage.

LEXSOOS

I think that all you said is very close to what really happend, you have mentioned all major aspects of Emans situation. Prior body damage could result in whats happening now, i don't see any reason why that would happend? just because winshiled was replaced? Is there more GS owners who replaced winshield and expirienced same thing? if yes, that might be a case, but if not, he should look into colision inspection first to determine if there was any prior damage to his vehicle. Thats what i would do in first place

e-man

Thanks guys. I'd like to hear a few more opinions, but here's what I think.

I honestly believe that the windshield does not fit properly. Maybe it's 1 or 2 mm too small. Maybe it's not the perfect shape. Maybe the car's shape has changed every so slightly over the 7 years and 80,000 miles it has been driven due to all the stresses and strains of every day driving. I don't and probably never will know for sure, but I truly believe that the windshield does not fit. Once the old windshield came out and the new windshield went in, because it did not fit just right, the car actually conformed to fit the new windshield, and that's why this faint crease developed (first in the front, and then in the rear). The insurance company is not buying it, but that's what I truly believe.

I think Salimshah had some valid points too. But, I think the windshield cracked a few days after it chipped because it was weak (but not as a result of any pre-existing stress that existed when the original glass was set at the factory). The windshield had a lot of specks and pock marks, and it was just plain ready to die.

Jake, to answer your question, as to whether the car has ever been in accident before, it hasn't. I'm the second owner of the car. I bought the car private party from the original owner. I met him personally and I still keep in touch with him today. The Lexus service records on the car are impeccable (every 5,000 miles at the dealership). The car was thoroughly inspected before the purchase, and it's clean as it comes. The only fresh paint on the car is on the rear bumper, which I had painted for cosmetic reasons shortly after buying the car. Moreover, even if the car had been in an accident (again, I'm sure it hasn't been), I just can't see that a perfectly straight, uniform crease would form as a result. Accidents, by their very nature, are not perfect. If the crease was crooked, uneven, or in a weird spot, maybe I could see that. But this crease is WAY TOO PERFECT to make me think it could be the result of some prior damage to the car.

Does anyone have any further thoughts?

exvelocity

glass does not serve as a structural support for unibody on any car, PEROID!
The glass installing morons made a crease on the front portion of the roof, the second crease behind the moonroof was either there before the glass replacement after front collision and you didn't notice it or someone made a dent, .

you can remove the all glass out of any car and drive for years, and I can guarantee you, there will be no creases,if we all depended on glass to be a structural support,by now we'd be dead, or crippled

exvelocity

one more thing, post the photos of the damage "creases"

salimshah

SInce I floated the idea, and it can be miscontrued , I must say I agree with the statement that glass is never meant to provide structutal support. PERIOD.

My thesis was based on "if the the structure is understress (cause .. unknown) the glass can be the last straw preventing buckling".

Again I just floated a theory. Fact? can's say.

Salim

e-man

I've taken about 20 pictures, but the crease is so faint that it won't show up.

The crease was definitely not there before the new windshield was installed. The installer went over the entire area with me to point out any and all scratches, paint chips, etc., and specifically said the reason he was doing so was to make sure that I knew those things were there and that he didn't cause it. He came back a few days after the install to adjust the rear view mirror, and said that he was absolutely sure that the crease was not there before he did the job.

As for the glass installer causing the crease, I can tell you that I watched over the guy like a hawk. He absolutely positively did not touch the top of the car. If he caused the crease, the only way it could have happened was with the force he applied to cutting out the old windshield. Is this possible?

exvelocity

I see what you mean,
glass does take some stress, but not much, there is a reason for car manufactorers(sp) use urethane adhesive when glass is installed

exvelocity

is the crease right on the edge or few inches away? it is possible,but if he was so particular showing you all the nicks and chips before starting to replace the glass ,I doubt he would start yanking on the glass or prying it so much to cause creases, is it possible that you didn't see it ,but it was there all along?only upone close inspection after the new glass you saw it?

e-man

Good question. I can honestly say that I'm sure it wasn't there prior to the install. I hand wash my car at least once a week, and hand washed it the day before the new windshield went in. I am so **** about my car I would have seen it (especially the crease on the front part of the windshield). Even though it won't show up in pictures, it's really as plain as day. When you consider that and the fact that the glass installer is sure that it wasn't there prior to the install, I think it's safe to say that it wasn't there. I have two small paint chips about 6 inches to the left of the crease (which have been there ever since I got the car). Just prior to installing the windshield, the installer pointed those two chips out to me. He also inspected the rest of the roof in that area. We would have seen the crease. It would have been right there in front of us.

And, he did have to pry pretty hard to get the original glass out. He had this thing that looked like a small meat hook, and he seemed to be using quite a bit of force to cut out the windshield.

And, as for the crease, it extends from the edge of the roof where the roof meets the molding for the windshield to the edge of the roof where the roof meets the molding for the moonroof.

Stage3

iTrader: (3)

DIRECTLY FROM SAFEWINDSHEILDS.com

What role does my windshield play to ensure my safety in an accident?

The windshield provides a significant amount of strength to the structural support in the cabin of the vehicle. For instance, in a front end collision the windshield provides up to 45% of the structural integrity of the cabin of the vehicle and in a rollover, up to 60%.

Think about that for just a moment. How would you like for over half of the force of a collision to be absorbed by YOU because your windshield flew out in an accident? It happens more times than most of us are aware.

The windshield is an integral part of the safety restraint system in your car. It keeps the roof from crushing in on you in a rollover, it allows the airbags to deploy in the correct position to cushion passengers, and prevents you and your family from being ejected in a serious collision. It's important to your family's safety that the auto glass in your vehicle be installed properly.

Ok, so that does it for that debate.

Now as for the ORIGINAL problem... E, I haven't a damn clue! LOL! I hope you can sort this out through a lot of the misnomers presented to you as to the cause of the problem.

e-man

Thanks. Good info. But, like you said, what does that mean in the context of my car? I guess the question is really whether if you drive around without a windshield or with an improperly fitting windshield whether the stresses/forces transmitted through the suspension and twisting of the car would be enough to crease the roof.

The impact theory proposed by the insurance company just doesn't make sense. I mean, come on. How could an object the EXACT length of the distance between the windshield and the moonroof strike the car at a perfect 90 degree angle (and have the proper curvature) to leave a perfectly straight crease of uniform depth without scratching or chipping the paint. Things just don't happen that way. And then to say that another object struck the car 2 days later and created a crease on the exact same line as the first crease? It defies logic.

I will say that it is possible (unlikely, but possible) that crease #2 was there when Lexus inspected crease #1. Crease #2 is much more faint than crease #1 (which is faint to begin with). It is possible that everyone missed crease #2 and it was there at the same time crease #1. If an improperly fitting windshield is not the culprit, then I think the next most logical explanation is that the windshield installer just pulled and pryed a little too hard and the roof creased. And, if this is the case, a little paintless dent repair should take care of the problem.