GS leather "trim" is 100% leather all around
04-30-04, 05:41 PM
#16
Originally posted by SeattleGS400
Of course, firsthand info is better than secondhand info. I'll be back with some close inspection pics on Monday or Tuesday of next week. . .
Of course, firsthand info is better than secondhand info. I'll be back with some close inspection pics on Monday or Tuesday of next week. . .
05-06-04, 11:35 PM
#17
Here's the proof--100% leather all around
All right, I finally got my 2 new hook clips for holding my rear bottom seat cushion down (so it doesn't make a knocking sound on semi-rough roads), and so I thought I'd snap pictures of the rear seats to settle this--whether the seats in Lexus cars (well, at least for a GS400) is all leather (the sign of a real premium vehicle) or a mix of leather and vinyl (like most other manufacturers do to save on cost).
In any event, it's 100% leather all around in the GS. I, too, was shocked about a week ago when I noticed all of the seat panels clad in leather, even the parts you don't even see or touch. Here's the evidence:
1. As mentioned a few posts above, it would cost you a tad under $10,000 to re-upholster the whole car with new OEM leather covers for all headrests and seats. At such a premium price, one would expect that 100% leather was used throughout and not go cheap with some vinyl placed here and there.
2. All seating surfaces that we sit on and come in contact with should be upholstered in leather. If Lexus was going cheap, they'd use vinyl on the vertical faces that we don't touch and/or can see (bottom seat cushion--on the vertical sides (i.e. when you open the door, look at the side of the bottom seat cushion), and also at the vertical center face of the bottom cushion (it's a 8" wide x 6" high section at the driveshaft center hump); top cushion: the parts that hide the bolting screws and the vertical back surface of the top seatback cushion). Anyways, those aforemetioned parts (and other sections we don't sit on and/or see) are clad in 100% leather--check it out for yourself.
The following pictures prove it all. . .
In any event, it's 100% leather all around in the GS. I, too, was shocked about a week ago when I noticed all of the seat panels clad in leather, even the parts you don't even see or touch. Here's the evidence:
1. As mentioned a few posts above, it would cost you a tad under $10,000 to re-upholster the whole car with new OEM leather covers for all headrests and seats. At such a premium price, one would expect that 100% leather was used throughout and not go cheap with some vinyl placed here and there.
2. All seating surfaces that we sit on and come in contact with should be upholstered in leather. If Lexus was going cheap, they'd use vinyl on the vertical faces that we don't touch and/or can see (bottom seat cushion--on the vertical sides (i.e. when you open the door, look at the side of the bottom seat cushion), and also at the vertical center face of the bottom cushion (it's a 8" wide x 6" high section at the driveshaft center hump); top cushion: the parts that hide the bolting screws and the vertical back surface of the top seatback cushion). Anyways, those aforemetioned parts (and other sections we don't sit on and/or see) are clad in 100% leather--check it out for yourself.
The following pictures prove it all. . .
Last edited by SeattleGS400; 05-07-04 at 12:02 AM.
05-06-04, 11:39 PM
#18
Upper seatback cushion bolt cover
In this picture, it's of the upper seatback cushion bolt cover. It is on the upper cushion, right behind the L and R outboard headrests. Your head never rests on this, as the headrest is in front of it, and it just acts a cover, and yet it's still 100% leather (note the moccasion-like surface on the back of the cover). The white part is just a thin plastic backing piece that the leather cover is stitched onto to help keep it's shape flattened like a proper cover should be.
Last edited by SeattleGS400; 05-06-04 at 11:54 PM.
05-06-04, 11:43 PM
#19
Upper seatback cushion bolt cover hole (deep)
In this next picture, it's of the upper seatback cushion bolt cover (the deeper cover)--just under superficial cover mentioned above. Again, your head never rests on this, as the headrest is in front of it, and it just acts a cover, and yet it's still 100% leather (note the moccasion-like surface on the back of the cover). I deformed it a bit, by pulling down on the cover hole--check out the leather texture.
05-06-04, 11:45 PM
#20
Lower seat cushion vertical middle section
In the lower seat cushion, there is a 8" wide x 6" high vertical section on front center, around the driveshaft hump. You never touch this, but it, too, is clad in leather (see the edge material around the circumference of the holes--no vinyl, just all natural hide). The 3 holes were probably made as an assistance/hold guide during the preparatory leather tanning process.
Last edited by SeattleGS400; 05-07-04 at 12:26 AM.
05-07-04, 06:29 AM
#22
In summary. . .
This firsthand info should put the debate to rest--Lexus interiors are all 100% leather, and no vinyl is used whatsoever (on the GS, at least).
Personally, I'm really surprised that Lexus did use 100% leather in the interior; however, given the premium cost of the car, I really shouldn't be. But it's good to know that our premium cars use premium materials throughout.
Someone should write www.leatherseats.com to tell them about this.
Personally, I'm really surprised that Lexus did use 100% leather in the interior; however, given the premium cost of the car, I really shouldn't be. But it's good to know that our premium cars use premium materials throughout.
Someone should write www.leatherseats.com to tell them about this.
05-07-04, 09:58 AM
#23
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I was asked to post on this subject so here goes... there are VERY FEW true 100% leather interiors. I think there is one or two BMW M5s and M3s have 100% leather along with a few high end Mercedes and Audi. Of course Rolls Royce, Bentley, etc... those companies many times will put 100% leather in their interiors. The GS interior, which is at question, I have not checked hands on yet, but it wouldnt surprise me if it was very close to 100% leather. I know the older GS's pattern wouldnt accomodate much vinyl because of the way the pattern was designed. I am not positive on the newer GSs because I still havent gotten anyone to send in their interior (NUDGE NUDGE) for patterning. Now as for most interior shop's view on leather seating surfaces vs. 100% leather interiors, the answer will be the same pretty much. 100% leather is a waste of money, and time. 100% leather interiors are harder to install and get to fit right and are just a plain waste of materials. Back in the day the high end sports cars and nice cars in America would only come with 100% vinyl as their luxury interior because 100% leather so expensive. Now that we have the technology and new means of immitating leather, there is no purpose in using 100% leather anymore when we can use a leather/vinyl combo that looks identical making it affordable. There are so many parts of a car's interior that are only there to attach to some hook or clip or be hooked or clipped to something. There is no reason to waste leather there. Now as far as installation... leather does not stretch very much at all compared to vinyl. So when you are installing the actual interior its going to be 3 times as hard to work the leather cover onto the seat in the exact right position. The other concern that there is with 100% leather is that leather contracts and loosens depending on the temperature. Imagine you have a band of leather around a canister and then you put the leather in a really hot oven or something. The leather would loosen and could even get to where its a little loose on the canister. Now imagine you stick it in the freezer... the whole leather band will contract on it and really put a lot of pressure on the seam lines of where the leather is stitched together along with the canister. Now imagine the same illustration but with it have a little bit of vinyl somewhere in the band that helped the leather to give so the stress on the seat and the seams is lessened quite a bit. Anyways this is getting really long...
Basically... it wouldnt surprise me if they put close to a 100% leather interior in the GS, but there are still most likely some vinyl parts to the interior somewhere. I am about 90% sure that the door panels and dash are mostly vinyl with little pieces of leather in the actual contact portions of the dash and doors. My view on 100% leather interiors... generally a big waste of money and time, and in many cases can be harder to take care of because all the leather pieces that are attached under the seats or on the back of the seat you dont think about when you are conditioning them are left out. Leather that isnt conditioned leads to drying and cracking... mixed that with the heating/cooling issues and you have a recipe for murder and mayhem.
Jeremy
P.S. This is kinna my personal thoughts on 100% leather interiors vs. leather/vinyl interiors. There are some that disagree.
Basically... it wouldnt surprise me if they put close to a 100% leather interior in the GS, but there are still most likely some vinyl parts to the interior somewhere. I am about 90% sure that the door panels and dash are mostly vinyl with little pieces of leather in the actual contact portions of the dash and doors. My view on 100% leather interiors... generally a big waste of money and time, and in many cases can be harder to take care of because all the leather pieces that are attached under the seats or on the back of the seat you dont think about when you are conditioning them are left out. Leather that isnt conditioned leads to drying and cracking... mixed that with the heating/cooling issues and you have a recipe for murder and mayhem.
Jeremy
P.S. This is kinna my personal thoughts on 100% leather interiors vs. leather/vinyl interiors. There are some that disagree.
05-07-04, 10:00 AM
#24
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Oh yeah... that first picture that is posted looks like vinyl to me, but the rest of them definitely are leather. I just now read all the posts on this thread so my reponse to them is here... the only 100% leather dash I have ever seen is in an M5 and a Bentley. And not all M5's have leather dashes. In fact the owner of the company here owns an M5 and his dash is vinyl. Soooo... it would be a far stretch for the dash and door panels in the GS to be leather, but without me seeing them and touching them I couldnt be for sure.
I reponse to the prices listed... its not because they are 100% leather or not 100%leather, but its because they want to rip you off. If they are gonna go back and make leather covers for the car again they want to make it worth their time which means 100%-300% profit margin. All the car manufacturers are like that. I have gotten calls from a ton of Lexus and Toyota dealerships that want us to start making just parts for them because they like the quality of our product better than Lexus/Toyota and because they are half the price.
Jeremy
I reponse to the prices listed... its not because they are 100% leather or not 100%leather, but its because they want to rip you off. If they are gonna go back and make leather covers for the car again they want to make it worth their time which means 100%-300% profit margin. All the car manufacturers are like that. I have gotten calls from a ton of Lexus and Toyota dealerships that want us to start making just parts for them because they like the quality of our product better than Lexus/Toyota and because they are half the price.
Jeremy
Last edited by Leatherseats.com; 05-07-04 at 10:17 AM.
05-07-04, 10:46 AM
#25
Jeremy:
Thanks for your reply--it's appreciated. Nonehteless, I've checked the GS seats, and every rear seat panel (even the rear upper seat cushion), and I will stand by my statement of the 100% leather seating surfaces. Even the inner bottom panel of the rear center headrest is leather (I'll take a picture if you'd like as I know you probably don't have easy access to one)--why Lexus would bother using leather here beats me. . . I'm right there with you on that one).
As for the first picture, look at it again. Note the texture, I'll take a higher res pic for you if you'd like. I can feel it and see it--it's plainly leather. I took out the whole upper seatback last week to tighten some bolts (when I fully examined and cleaned the panels) but didn't do it yesterday.
The GS dash is obviously vinyl--it's no Bentley, Rolls, Maybach, or Ferrari. As for the door inserts, I'm not going to thrash my car to prove it--it looks good either way (but if someone has a door insert lying aroudn that they want to check. . . ). Based on how my leather conditioner goes into the door insert surface, it absorbs in like leather and the cracks have the leather texture--but I can't fully prove it w/o looking at the back surface. But based on what I've seen, I don't have any good reason why it wouldn't be 100% leather (considering where leather was used in the above discussion).
As for the prices, I'm right there with you. No one in their right mind would pay a little under $10K to resurface their cars seats with OEM leather when you can get just as good, if not better for 1/2 the cost in the aftermarket.
I value your expertise and knowlege in automotive leather interiors. But for now, I think the burden of proof is on you, without any pictures to prove anything, I think the discussion is leaning towards the seats being 100% leather--and I'm pretty careful with my statements and claims (due to science background and a few published science journal papers). Nonetheless, I, like you, just want to get down to the bottom of this--does Lexus use 100% leather in their interiors (for at least the 2nd gen GS), and as of now, from what I've carefully examined, I definitely think yes. Just remember, in the end, no harm should be considered done, and just the facts should come out--so all of us know what our car's interiors are made of.
Thanks for your reply--it's appreciated. Nonehteless, I've checked the GS seats, and every rear seat panel (even the rear upper seat cushion), and I will stand by my statement of the 100% leather seating surfaces. Even the inner bottom panel of the rear center headrest is leather (I'll take a picture if you'd like as I know you probably don't have easy access to one)--why Lexus would bother using leather here beats me. . . I'm right there with you on that one).
As for the first picture, look at it again. Note the texture, I'll take a higher res pic for you if you'd like. I can feel it and see it--it's plainly leather. I took out the whole upper seatback last week to tighten some bolts (when I fully examined and cleaned the panels) but didn't do it yesterday.
The GS dash is obviously vinyl--it's no Bentley, Rolls, Maybach, or Ferrari. As for the door inserts, I'm not going to thrash my car to prove it--it looks good either way (but if someone has a door insert lying aroudn that they want to check. . . ). Based on how my leather conditioner goes into the door insert surface, it absorbs in like leather and the cracks have the leather texture--but I can't fully prove it w/o looking at the back surface. But based on what I've seen, I don't have any good reason why it wouldn't be 100% leather (considering where leather was used in the above discussion).
As for the prices, I'm right there with you. No one in their right mind would pay a little under $10K to resurface their cars seats with OEM leather when you can get just as good, if not better for 1/2 the cost in the aftermarket.
I value your expertise and knowlege in automotive leather interiors. But for now, I think the burden of proof is on you, without any pictures to prove anything, I think the discussion is leaning towards the seats being 100% leather--and I'm pretty careful with my statements and claims (due to science background and a few published science journal papers). Nonetheless, I, like you, just want to get down to the bottom of this--does Lexus use 100% leather in their interiors (for at least the 2nd gen GS), and as of now, from what I've carefully examined, I definitely think yes. Just remember, in the end, no harm should be considered done, and just the facts should come out--so all of us know what our car's interiors are made of.
Last edited by SeattleGS400; 05-07-04 at 11:01 AM.
05-07-04, 11:11 AM
#26
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Hmmm... well thanks for the write back. I was just asked to comment and thats what I did. I dont have a GS to test for you guys otherwise I would but I am not trying to prove anything. I dont even know why you all really want to know... does it change anything? If you find out where the vinyl is will you feel like your car is disgraced? Will you feel better if it is 100% leather? Me personally I wouldnt care between the two as long as it was quality, which Lexus is pretty good about, and as long as it looked good. Anyways thats all I should say... dont want to get drawn into anything that turns ugly. When I get someone who will send the factory GS interior to me I will post and let everyone know what I find out.
Jeremy
Jeremy
05-07-04, 12:47 PM
#27
Originally posted by Leatherseats.com
Hmmm... well thanks for the write back. I was just asked to comment and thats what I did. I dont have a GS to test for you guys otherwise I would but I am not trying to prove anything. I dont even know why you all really want to know... does it change anything? If you find out where the vinyl is will you feel like your car is disgraced? Will you feel better if it is 100% leather? Me personally I wouldnt care between the two as long as it was quality, which Lexus is pretty good about, and as long as it looked good. Anyways thats all I should say... dont want to get drawn into anything that turns ugly. When I get someone who will send the factory GS interior to me I will post and let everyone know what I find out.
Jeremy
Hmmm... well thanks for the write back. I was just asked to comment and thats what I did. I dont have a GS to test for you guys otherwise I would but I am not trying to prove anything. I dont even know why you all really want to know... does it change anything? If you find out where the vinyl is will you feel like your car is disgraced? Will you feel better if it is 100% leather? Me personally I wouldnt care between the two as long as it was quality, which Lexus is pretty good about, and as long as it looked good. Anyways thats all I should say... dont want to get drawn into anything that turns ugly. When I get someone who will send the factory GS interior to me I will post and let everyone know what I find out.
Jeremy
You and others on this board are why I like this ClubLexus, we can discuss things in a mature, deliberate manner and not resort to useless flaming that other boards I've been on prior to this one.
For me, I just want to get the right information out that Lexus cars are high quality, and they don't use second rate materials, like "pleather" or "plood". In past discussions, it has been hinted that the Lexus cars used "plood" in the doors and console, and that was proven wrong. How this thread was started wasn't by choice, but rather by the mere incidental chance that I pulled out my rear seats to get to the bottom of knocking sound over some semi-rough roads in my car (which ended up being the rear seat bottom clips were clicking in place and needed replacement), and it was when I started cleaning each and every panel of the rear seats that I realized that Lexus didn't take any shortcuts in making them, and found that all panels were 100% cowhide. Of course, once I found that out, that's how my thread all started
Anyways, summarily, the Lexus cars cost a premium, so we'd expect that they use premium materials and not take any short cuts--which so far has pricisely has been the case. However, if you find something drastically different than what I've posted--definitely pass it on, so we all know what our cars are made of.
Som
05-07-04, 01:10 PM
#28
wow awesome discussions! thanks seattle for the investigation! now i am really pumped up!! hopefully jeremy will get a set of GS leather set for the pattern, and so he can look at the leather too to see if they are real, then we will have 100% guarantee
man, if that's the case, isnt' that the car a steal to buy?
man, if that's the case, isnt' that the car a steal to buy?
05-07-04, 01:28 PM
#29
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Cool... well you are correct with the console lid cover and door inserts. A lot of luxury cars have those in leather so that sounds about right. I am happy to be part of ClubLexus... you all are a very respectable bunch. And I hope I get the GS interior soon also rominl... I'd like to have that available to you all for the next group buy. Its sounds as though it might be 100% or at least pretty close to 100%.
Jeremy
Jeremy
Last edited by Leatherseats.com; 05-07-04 at 01:29 PM.
05-07-04, 02:21 PM
#30
Originally posted by Leatherseats.com
Cool... well you are correct with the console lid cover and door inserts. A lot of luxury cars have those in leather so that sounds about right. I am happy to be part of ClubLexus... you all are a very respectable bunch. And I hope I get the GS interior soon also rominl... I'd like to have that available to you all for the next group buy. Its sounds as though it might be 100% or at least pretty close to 100%.
Jeremy
Cool... well you are correct with the console lid cover and door inserts. A lot of luxury cars have those in leather so that sounds about right. I am happy to be part of ClubLexus... you all are a very respectable bunch. And I hope I get the GS interior soon also rominl... I'd like to have that available to you all for the next group buy. Its sounds as though it might be 100% or at least pretty close to 100%.
Jeremy
Just kidding with that, I'm sure your covers are very high-quality, and I'd probably use your company if my seats somehow got ruined in the future. Great having another thoughtful ClubLexus discussion with you guys! I'll see you guys around the board.
Last edited by SeattleGS400; 05-07-04 at 03:01 PM.