Suppose they did and union organization was rejected, then what? Would all the dirty tactics stop?
Do you think Tesla should unionize, and why?

 

The workers were given the option, voted and got rejected. Business in Sweden continues for Tesla. Yes, I believe the "dirty tactics" as you call it would stop.


I don't care if Tesla unionize or not, if 51% or more of their workers care then they have all right to try and get it done. It seems majority of Sweden is unionized and its pretty much the norm. If Tesla like yourself believes most of the workers don't want a union, then put it to a vote, have the workers decide and move on from there.

 

Agreed, put it to a vote. And employees of all unionized companies will also vote if they want go non union. Because it's not up to the companies they don't get to choose.

 

I sense sarcasm.

Guess you don't want it to be put to a vote?

 

As long as employees at all companies can also vote to dump unions (or keep them) then 100% yes I support a vote at Tesla. I'm betting you only think Tesla employees should get to vote on unionization, not the other way around at union based labour forces.

 

I don't get what's the issue, you yourself was adamant Tesla employees don't want anything to do with a union. So it should be easy to win via a vote so what's the problem?

I may be mistaken, but employees at union companies do get to vote to dump unions by not being a member. If there is not enough members, the union won't exist. Isn't this the case?

 

There isn't enough people to even organize a vote. No interest.
Yea right like you can get rid of a union.

 

In the United States, employees can vote to get rid of a union under certain circumstances.

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/righ...ation-election


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That was my fault Lex if I inadvertantly confused the notions of laws and principles, so I aplologise for my lack of clarity. To clarify, there is no legal obligation to have a union, and there are no legal preventions to unions fighting for one. There is however a general principle in Sweden for unionised collective bargaining, and there is also a principle within Tesla for non unionised labour. So, what I was attempting to say was that both sides are acting within the law, and are just fighting their principles/preferences within any legal framework. In that sense I see both sides as being equal, with neither being right or wrong, and just in a postion where they're having to resolve the issue between themselves, without government getting involved. To me that's as free and open as it gets.

You're right, it isn't a complex issue, although I think you'e getting a little carried away with things like mafia tactics. The unions are simply using the legal tools available to them to fight their corner. It's no different to a non unionised business using strong arm tactics by saying this is the pay, take it or leave it. What's complex, or at least confusing to me, is that you seem to feel that only one side should have that power, which would appear to be the opposite of free and open.

To me, a free market is about both sides having equal power, and the market finding a balance. Sure, labour can't work without capital, but then capital can't work without labour. The only way that labour can have equal power to capital is through joining forces. Sure, sometimes that will result in what appears to be an unfair balance on one side or the other, but that's the nature of free markets, and both businesses and unions have utilised that to their advantage. Life isn't always fair. I'm not sure what else you'd propose, as to change that would require big government intervention, either in favour of business or the unions, which I assume you're opposed to. Some you win, some you lose. And, like I said, Tesla may win, who knows.

I also think that some of the feeling is based on Sweden being socialist in nature, and therefore leading to an assumption that it's somehow anti business. In reality the opposite is true regarding business in Sweden. Both businesses and workers support the collective bargaining system, as it works well for both. Even the financial institutions seem to be behind it. Far from being anti businesss, Sweden is one of the most entrepreneurial countries in the world. Outside of Silicon Valley, Stockholm has more billion dollar start ups per capita than any US city, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. Sweden also has a lower corporate tax rate than the US, and they suffer less man hours lost due to strikes. So it's actually a highly successful system, and very favourable towards business. Sure, they do things differently, but it's a system which they've evolved that's based on mutual trust, that seems to work for both parties. I think the problem comes when people judge it based on the experiences of management/union conflict in some countries, whereas in Sweden the emphasis is more on management/union collaboration.

Obviously, like any system, it's not perfect, and when one party wants to operate outside of that established dynamic, it would cause a clash, but that's no different to anywhere. If I were to set up a corporation in the US, and insist that I didn't want to adhere to minimum wage levels, or provide healthcare benefits, I imagine there'd be similar controversy. Ultimately, if you take away any notions of Tesla vs Sweden, employer vs employee, or capital vs labour, and put aside any prejudices or preferences towards businesses or unions, based on how they might operate in other countries, you'll see that it's a much more equal, free and open concept than either a purely socialist or purely capitalist structure can provide.

As I've said, I'm not on either side, and quite like Musk, so I find it pretty interesting, and am curious to see how things will play out.

 

you are very mistaken.

This is Europe, this is Sweden.

Union is organizing a strike for mechanics at Tesla. Only 10% of the mechanics that are union members are participating. They are now kicking out 90% of the mechanics that work in Tesla out of the union, and at the same time collaborating with other unions not to deliver goods to Tesla.

Literally they are blackmailing people to join the strike, i assume that due to their laws everyone is part of the union, and who knows how do you get a job later somewhere else if you are kicked out.

 

It looks like you copied this from some article or a book, because what you are writing is very generalized and has very little to do whats happening in Sweden.

I will summarize it again so it is very simple:
1. 10% of members of union of metal workers in Tesla Sweden is on strike after their union demanded it.
2. 90% of other union members who are refusing to strike are being kicked out of union.
3. Other unions in Sweden and region are refusing to deliver goods to Tesla Sweden because of union of metal workers strike (which is supported by 10% of the actual members)

How is this not mafia tactics?

If this was happening in China to VW, whole EU would be up in their arms about it.

 

I think it's worth pointing out some of the differences in how things work in Sweden compared to places like the US or UK.

Sweden has a system of both uniions and collective bargaining. That bargaining isn't done on a company by company basis. Instead, pay and conditions are negotiated on a sector by sector basis, ie manufacturing sector, automaker sector, etc. As such, any agreements are applied across a sector. So, the level of any unionisation within any individual company doesn''t matter so much, as it's the sector that counts. It's probably also worth noting that, in Sweden, there's a higher percentage of white collar workers covered by unions (75% union membership) and collective bargaining than blue collar workers (60%), which is very different to other countries.

It's swings and roundabouts as, whilst it puts more power into the hands of workers, it creates stability for employers due to less frequent strikes and industrial action. That's why employers largely like it. The upside for workers is that wages are tightly linked to productivity, and have grown alongside it, compared the US (and UK I believe), where wages aren't directly linked to productivity, and are instead tied to the lower value of surplus workers, and so increase more slowly, or not at all.

It's because of this sector based collective bargaining system that other unions/organisations get involved, and why it's become an issue not isolated to Tesla employees. The issue that Tesla is facing therefore, isn't just about them and their employees, but about a nationally accepted structure of collective bargaining, that both employers and employees in Sweden seem unified in supporting.

That's a fairly simple summary, as obviously there's a lot more detail, but it's important to highlight how it can't be compared so easily to industrial relations in other countries.

 

What I've written isn't simply copied from any book or article, it's my summary of how things work in Sweden, and how it differs from other countries. In part based on my own experience of working with busineses across both Europe and the USA. along with some up to date reading on the matter. As such, what you've done, isn't to make things simple, but simplistic

Given that you previously said "This is Europe, this is Sweden" shows that you have no idea of how things work. Sweden is very different to places like the UK and other parts of Europe (see my other post, that highlights those differences), and is precisely why other unions get involved.

Now, you may not like it, which is fair enough, but that's how their system works. If it were mafia tactics, then why is it that it's not only workers that support such a system, but also employers and financial institutions. In reality, it's the free market at work in its purest sense. By that I mean, if the unions are seen to be overstepping their boundaries, or overly exploiting the system, then businesses and financial institutions in Sweden will no longer be supportive, and Tesla will win.

If you actually read my post, you'll see I wasn't defending the unions, just the system that they operate within. I have repeatedly said that I favour no side, and so if one side abuses that system, or pushes the boundaries too far, then it's the market that willl punish them, rather than big government.

Again, this has nothing to do with the EU, as Sweden's business structure is both independent and very different to other EU countries. The fact that you're not aware of that suggests a lack of both knowledge and perspective on this particular issue.

 

Hi @BillUK ,

Your posts are well thought out and courteous and I'm not trying to put ya on the spot.

There's a few things that are troubling to me about what is being reported.

1) mail service not delivering tags
2) dock workers refusing to unload Teslas
3) media siding with unions
4) etc

People may say, why not have a vote?

In my opinion it's too late for any votes once the media machine steps in and influences public opinion, that's no longer an organic vote! Bold and italicized! Lol

It looks very much like gangster tactics to me.

Do employers really love and support unions or are they under the grip of the financial institutions to play ball and submit.

Looks like they created a very hungry machine that needs to be fed. Lol

I could go on but looks like a coordinated attack with one goal in mind, submission. Lol

 

again, you are refusing to address what is actually happening, instead you are quoting some generalities.

I would appreciate if you answer my previous question, no need to talk about something unknown.

BTW, if this is how it worked in China, there would likely be WTO resolution about it. Instead, nobody cares because it is actually 10 people striking out of hundreds of people in Tesla Sweden.