ES350Bob

Has anyone ever seen or heard of a transmission TSIB for ES350 that includes slipping of gears 2 to 3, or gears other than typically mentioned 3 to 4, or slips that occur beyond the scope of typical TSIB dialogue?

I have only ever heard of or seen TSIB related data or instructions associated with gears 3 to 4; yet, I and many others have reported other gear involvement in slipping, myself even to Lexus officials. Also, many have reported slipping that is beyond the first ten minutes of operation, slipping at hot temp or said another way, fully warmed up temperature slips involving 2 to 3, 3 to 4, other.

It is obvious there is no permanent fix for this transmission slipping and I believe it is because Lexus is either unaware of, or for some reason choosing to ignore other gear involvement which would limit a full and complete reolution or would impede transmission engineers from fully understanding what is going on in order to correct it.

If you read the more recent TSIB below, which is currently in question as to ongoing offficial approach, you will see no mention of the surging/bucking/jerking that can happen which could be harmful to occupants, no mention of any gear set other than 3 to 4 and no mention of other times the transmission slips.

Has anyone else had any feedback in mentioning other instances the slipping happens? I believe a lack of full and complete understanding is the reason this is still going on nearly a year after release of the ES350 and would like input from others. Maybe we all need to call corporate and insist they acknowledge that thay are aware of other gears, other times than first ten minutes and maybe that understanding given to the right people will allow something viable to be released assuming they are not going to claim slipping is normal which seems possible.

Also, noteworthy: The TSIB itself reveals there is no new part-new transmission version is involved in the instructions, it actuallly states it, simply an order to cease putting valve body in and replace entire transmission instead.

ESsearch

I have not heard of any other TSIB's on the transaxle issues. My understanding of Technical Service Bulletins in general is that they are issued when a common and fairly widespread problem is identified. It is intended to save the service department time in diagnosis and to pass along the corporate guidelines for the fix. So my assumption is the 2/3 flare and other issues (such as the shuddering I reported) are not considered very widespread at this time. If you prefer a conspiracy theory, they simply might not want too many TSIB's out on this transaxle at one time. Who knows? The feedback in this forum would support my assumption, as many have reported the 3/4 flare and far fewer the other transaxle issues. A TSIB is not necessary for the service department to look into any particular problem. The service guys at my dealership have taken my other concerns seriously and have worked with corporate to get it resolved (to no avail thus far). In fact in my case, I don't see where another TSIB would necessarily help my cause appreciably.

Pete

ES350Bob

If I remember right you had asked whether the flare could be random and I was one of several who let you know it could be, as in not conforming to cranking the car cold and discovering it on a test drive which is loosely implied as a routine method to verify it's presence in a vehicle by TSIB.

I use that as one example of several mentioned above that has me wondering whether there is not a lack of total understanding of this issue by Lexus engineers or minimally those writing the TSIB.

Past when Twister took his in he said they ultimately discovered another code they had not seen before and sent in engineers to review it as another example.

I'm wondering if sum of all input on this issue is reaching those charged to repair it and if not that may be the reason it is as yet unresolved.

ESsearch

Yes, I had asked about the randomness of the flare. Even the shuddering is somewhat random. They are really scratching their heads on the shuddering issue. I just talked to the service manager and they want me to bring it in so they can drain all the fluid and the refill it to the point of overfill. This was the corporate engineers suggestion after collecting and analyzing the data on the computer while it happened. I would be shocked if it changes anything. I think they are just guessing at possible fixes. I am convinced there is a very real lack of understanding on what is happening. I believe my car is little more than a "test mule" to try different fixes. That is why I am pushing hard for the buy back. As far as I am concerned, they can give it to the engineers to play with all the want. But please, leave me out of the beta program.

Pete

ES350Bob

That is the kind of feedback I was looking for Pete. And here is why, I REFUSE to believe Toyota/Lexus has such inept engineers that they cannot fix this transmission or cannot go to some engineering firm outside Toyota/Lexus to get a fix. So that leaves me with the thought that somehwere at Toyota/Lexus there is an engineer who will one day say...Why the heck did you not tell me the transmission is ALSO doing that too or did you not tell me the several other things it was ALSO doing, because if you had told me this would have been solved a long time ago.

You would not have had to even ask informed CL members if it could be random if: Lexus corporate field tech had not told service manager on my former car to report to Japan my car was NORMAL, the service manager asked right in front of me what to tell Japan and he was at the keyboard to tell Japan.

Lexus field tech ignored 2 to 3 slipping frequently, ignored randomness of 3 to 4 slipping and TOLD that service manager to instruct Japan my car was fine. No mention of 2 to 3 to Japan, no mention of randomness of 3 to 4 to Japan. They were left clueless.

onsknht

I've said this many times and will go on record once again... This is a shell game, this is common in corporate culture (behind closed doors), the bottom line IS THE bottom line and yours or my experience is piddly-chit.

Where there's 10 of us here that will swear off Toyota, there is 1000 new customers.... REMEMBER.... "A sucker is born every minute!"

There IS a SERIOUS flaw with the 2007 U660E, that is the "bottom line." Problem is, you've got a few hundred thousand of them in the market.... Just as Toyota KNOWS what the problem really is (com'on! If I had a budgy of a few thousand gw's, even "I" could get to the bottom of the tranny issue!) Toyota could easily fund a fix! But there's those few hundred thousand cars on the road???? What's that cost to fix? Now think for just for one minute about the following...

I got my car to slip in situations other than 3 to 4, I also ran mine up to 147mph chasing down a 650i. How many owners of the few hundred thousand on the road will notice what someone like me will notice?

Now what does it cost to try and "pacify" or "lose" customers like me... Or many others here who are just more "aware?"

I'm sorry to say it fells... I am more than confident the 2008s will be "better" if not "fixed...." For now, I'm quite content in the thought this was a "controlled release" and a drop in the bucket compared to the MILLIONS of recalled vehicles Toyota has been plagued with in THE PAST 2 YEARS.

My advice to anyone wrapped up in this debacle... GET OUT NOW!

1. While resale is still good

2. How much is your time waiting, getting rides, riding different trains, being late for work, missing Saturday little league games, rearranging schedules and anything else worth to you?

Toyota/Lexus WILL stand behind their warranty 110% NO DOUBT.

1. So drive it while it's covered

2. See #1 and #2 above

My apologies for being blunt... But my TL while not perfect is absolute perfection compared to my 2007 SE V6 CLamry!

What's even better, the transmission works just like I expect it to.... So far.

Pheonix

Eh. The major problem here is that to really make a bottom line, end of discussion comment. You ahve to know exactly what the problem is, and exactly what the cause<s> are. To which noone knows.
Is it a major malfunction in the valve body sending incorrect pressure to the high gear compraied to what it needs VS what the TCCU tells the valve pressure solenoid to use?
Are they now purposly engaging multiple gears together than just the initial 1-2 gear change (as typical with almost all A/T's)???
From having done transmissions work, I can think of alot of questions & possibilities.

The world may never know. Call Asian-Warner LMAO! Ask them why their transmissions are going funky.


U know look, there's nothing you can do at a dealer level when there's a major transmission problem until replacement parts are released that fix the sintuation. Dealer's don't engineer transmissions. At best, they'd tell you to call the super high horsepower racing transmission shop down the street to beef up the clutches, and line pressure so it couldn't slip if it wanted too. And most people wouldn't like hearing that LoL!


It's probably just a time thing... They'll have to figure out what's wrong & deal with it. Doesn't look like anyone around here is in the A/T engineering field so. About the best anyone can do is keep up with maintenance checks & keep telling them their fixes don't work on a very regular basis.

onsknht

^^^ You know that's just it....

They KNOW what the problem is, they KNOW what the bottom line is... They hold all the cards, you simply bought a car. You have little resources outside of going to a speed-shop/trans specialist (which is exactly where I'd start ripping down a couple of U660Es with my "budgy") and chit, 2/3 of the owners "never have" the slip? Seriously, there is little on your side as a consumer to do but simply accept the a$$-reaming, and frankly, that sucks.

Toyota Corporate KNOWS this, they know the demographics of their customer base and they have years of data from which to extrapolate return rates... Based on all this, what I'm saying is Toyota Corporate knows all they need to know to make an educated guess as to how to retain as much revenue as possible. The simple game right now is stymie the consumer as long as they can.

By doing this Toyota Corporate already has an idea who they will lose as customers through "attrition" and who they can bull-chit through continued ownership.

WHY?

Because just as you or I could toss a couple of "experts" on the problem, Toyota has done the same thing... Toyota Corporate KNOWS this and has more than likely nailed down the problem over the past 6 months (I mean c'mon). The problem is.... The REAL FIX co$t$ a whole bunch more than the lost customers + "accommodating" the few who are aware of the problem.

BTW - I agree whole-heartedly about the dealerships, their hands are kind of tied to some extent... I bet it doesn't help you become "dealership of the year" any by accommodating customers with information about buy-backs and the such? So I wouldn't go off half-cocked about the lies just yet, it's more like "the pressure of doing business."

dunnojack

I hope that's the way they will treat me. Just take back my car, take the hit (chump change to them anyway), and I'll be on my way.

ES350Bob

Pete,

I wanted to think about the above before I gave you my opinion. As you know I had said we need to stop calling this a flare and start calling it slipping and this was before this add ATF suggestion was given you, before your car was even officially diagnosed with slipping.

Actually that is something I had repeatedly said to Lexus officials including their field tech going back to last September, October. The field tech insisted it was not a lack of fluid problem, refused to listen to my recordings of the trans slipping as did Lexus officials by never insisting I ship them to them though I offered to several times.

Now they are doing this add ATF thing, and please note, there is no TSIB directing dealers to do this yet several members have stated this is being done, has been done, or is planned for their car, so yes it falls under a Beta test as you described it and it is obvious there are other means than an actual TSIB to instruct dealers on what to do given the number of dealers inent on doing this to people.

I would tell them to show you a copy of the instructions on this procedure, ask they replace the current transmission in the car, no doubt damaged by a lack of fluid since you have been driving it for a while with them now implying it has lacked proper fluid level to operate properly, ask for an extended warranty for your trouble, and at the same time alert them to the fact that you are also mailing your Lemon Law material because you do not feel this is fair to do to you on a brand new car.

This addition of fluid will do nothing to solve the slipping, so you will be ahead of the game by already having mailed your Lemon Law material by the time they admit it did not work.

ES350Bob

Ons,

Just when I try really hard to imagine that there is a remote chance not all data is being given to those engineers charged to fix this transmission, which may in part excuse on some level this dragging on for a year, you come and post a common sense approach about the entire subject.

I'd add for others in this mess: If you decide to get out, be sure and keep your receipts and all expenses associated with removing yourself from this nightmare so you can participate in the class action lawsuit when it hits and get all of, or part of, your financial loss back by that means.

Ons is right, there is more to life than the thought of going to dealer service on a BRAND NEW CAR, time spent making the actual arrangements to, or time spent even having to talk with corporate people on the phone. You bought a new car to AVOID ALL OF THIS.

ESsearch

Bob - I am just humoring them for now. I talked to the Lexus Customer Support guy and told him I did not care what they did at this point. I have called him enough that we kinda know one another. I told him (politely of course) that Lexus should buy the car back and give it to the engineers wife. I bet then it would get resolved real fast! He laughed. Even if they somehow manage to fix it, I don't want the car any longer. He has told me they will start the buyback process for me. Ons is right, the best approach is get out now. My preference is to do that through a Lexus buyback and not loose money on the process. If you trade with the dealer, unless you have a good history with them, they will get in your pocket. If you get a replacement ES and have more problems, it will cost you to get out. I have also told Lexus I would move to a GS only if they or the dealer provide some assistance to minimize the cost difference. If not, I'll take my refund and shop elsewhere.

Pete

ES350Bob

That's the solution, force the engineers or managers to drive the car, let the wife experience the flare, or their own elderly parents or very small children as passengers, it would be fixed months ago if that were the requirement...LOL...I think in humor you are on to something that would cause it's solution.

onsknht

Just as there is new technology and design behind closed doors at Toyota, the transmission issue with the U660E is resolved... I think we can go to the bank on that. If they built it, they certainly have the ability to tear into it and resolve issues with it... If you really think about it, I bet the transaxle didn't work properly the first time they bolted it in a car, there had to be some trial/error so they've got to have experience diagnosing and fixing the U660E.

It's a numbers game and the sooner dissatisfied owners realize this, the better off they will be... While I am not happy about needing to buy two new cars in less than 4 months time. The $$$ damage was reasonable once I dropped my anger/resentment from being penetrated by Toyota. I could then shift the blow to a "usage fee" that was reasonable considering my use of the vehicle compared to other "short term ownership" options. This was not my first option in any shape or form when I bought the Clamry, but I think I had plenty of options available to me when I made my purchase. So I need to take some responsibility in all this and learn from my prior experiences.

And I have... It's been tough to not go look at the new Tundra, as much as I may need one this fall, I think I'm going to rethink my strategy and "consider" purchasing one in Fall of 2008. This should be great news to Toyota as I might just have been more inclined to buy a Tundra in the next few months had the experience with my Clamry been better.

ES350Bob

I don't agree it is resolved and am coming back to reality on the subject.

They have not been made to resolve the ES330/300 transmission hesitation, or for Avalon, and have gotten away with it for YEARS in spite of numerous complaints, even numerous federal agency reports indicating accidents, some with injuries. Same may apply here with this, particularly if 2007ES350, other experienced as we did recently when trying to simply talk about the flare with the dealers.

It is no way to do business, and it is true there is more to life than to be saddled with any manufacturer's defects and/or excuse making over a defect taking up one's personal time and effort.