How do I start a buyback?
02-15-07, 06:51 PM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
How do I start a buyback?
I expected this day to happen.
My car has turned out like NGG's old es350, and the Lexus corporate technicians came and looked at my car & recommend that I get body work done on my car for the overpowering rattle in my back window.... i.e. car is "not structurally sound". We're no longer talking about a simple dashboard plastic rattle, which lemon laws usually don't cover. My car is clearly a lemon, by the strictest definition.
A 3-month old car is not supposed to sound like this. Not even a shi**y Kia does this.
I am fed up. My car is in the shop ALL THE TIME. I don't even get to drive it.
I want to upgrade to the GS.
How do I start the process?
My car has turned out like NGG's old es350, and the Lexus corporate technicians came and looked at my car & recommend that I get body work done on my car for the overpowering rattle in my back window.... i.e. car is "not structurally sound". We're no longer talking about a simple dashboard plastic rattle, which lemon laws usually don't cover. My car is clearly a lemon, by the strictest definition.
A 3-month old car is not supposed to sound like this. Not even a shi**y Kia does this.
I am fed up. My car is in the shop ALL THE TIME. I don't even get to drive it.
I want to upgrade to the GS.
How do I start the process?
Last edited by dunnojack; 02-15-07 at 06:55 PM.
02-15-07, 07:16 PM
#2
Lexus Champion
I told you the pound test never fails, it is a dead giveaway for missing body welds/bolts. My former and my current have missing welds back there so I will follow what hoops you go through if you don't mind keeping us updated.
I believe if you want to upgrade to GS, then tell dealer sales manager that is what you want and let him or her start this process for you which may still require you calling 800 Lexus number.
Otherwise dealer may handle whole thing and you'll come up with difference in cost between a GS and your ES.
If you simply want your money back, you call the 800 number and tell them at Lexus you want your money back. File a Lemon Law notice and tell them you have when you make the first call to them about this. Instructions for that are with your manual.
I believe if you want to upgrade to GS, then tell dealer sales manager that is what you want and let him or her start this process for you which may still require you calling 800 Lexus number.
Otherwise dealer may handle whole thing and you'll come up with difference in cost between a GS and your ES.
If you simply want your money back, you call the 800 number and tell them at Lexus you want your money back. File a Lemon Law notice and tell them you have when you make the first call to them about this. Instructions for that are with your manual.
02-15-07, 09:20 PM
#3
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i hate to be the one to break it to you, but the engine noise and the rattle is not enough to call it a lemon yet. Im not expert, but the lexus engine noise sounds like normal to me, especially if that was a cold start. I havent been following your threads, but if that was not a cold start, then yes you may have a problem...but who has ever heard of a car being called a lemon for loud engine noise.
if you do want a buyback, my first step would be to consult your service advisor, and perhaps he can bring you to his superiors.
if you do want a buyback, my first step would be to consult your service advisor, and perhaps he can bring you to his superiors.
02-15-07, 11:06 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
I wasn't talking about engine noise. I'm not even concerned about the engine noise, although it's a warm-engine sound. I've accepted that already.
Right now, the issue is the bodyshop work that needs to be done on a pretty new car that is cosmetically perfect on the outside. Never any collisions. Just normal freeway driving.
I have had three es350 loaner cars so far, 2 of which have more miles on the odometer. and they do not exhibit this problem. I have done the TSIB, and it failed to correct the problem.
They stripped the interior to the bone, and still can't find the rattle, but you can clearly hear it. Does that make any sense? It doesn't make sense to me--- you hear it, but can't find it?? wtf?
This is odd behavior not found on 99% of this model, therefore I call it a lemon. If they recommend body work, then they are implying it is a structural defect.
If you don't call this irreparable jangling noise a lemon, then what do you call it? "Normal"?
Is this the right 1800 lexus number I have to call?
The Lexus Customer Assistance Center
Monday - Friday, 6:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m. PT
Phone: 1-800-255-3987 prompt #4
Fax: 1-310-468-2992
ES350Bob, there are no bolts back there.
Check out this diagram. It's just welds and sealer.
His superiors? I thought we deal directly with Lexus corporate........
Right now, the issue is the bodyshop work that needs to be done on a pretty new car that is cosmetically perfect on the outside. Never any collisions. Just normal freeway driving.
I have had three es350 loaner cars so far, 2 of which have more miles on the odometer. and they do not exhibit this problem. I have done the TSIB, and it failed to correct the problem.
They stripped the interior to the bone, and still can't find the rattle, but you can clearly hear it. Does that make any sense? It doesn't make sense to me--- you hear it, but can't find it?? wtf?
This is odd behavior not found on 99% of this model, therefore I call it a lemon. If they recommend body work, then they are implying it is a structural defect.
If you don't call this irreparable jangling noise a lemon, then what do you call it? "Normal"?
Is this the right 1800 lexus number I have to call?
The Lexus Customer Assistance Center
Monday - Friday, 6:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m. PT
Phone: 1-800-255-3987 prompt #4
Fax: 1-310-468-2992
ES350Bob, there are no bolts back there.
Check out this diagram. It's just welds and sealer.
His superiors? I thought we deal directly with Lexus corporate........
Last edited by dunnojack; 02-15-07 at 11:12 PM.
02-15-07, 11:18 PM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Although wikipedia is not the best source, it's good enough: My vehicle fits pretty snugly to its definition. Does lexus want to wait till my car is exactly branded as a lemon? I'm 98% there already.
. Just to be clear, I want to deal directly with corporate, and if they can arrange the trade-up to a GS350, then all the better. Is my request too much?
.
New vehicles may contain hidden mechanical flaws or defects in workmanship, caused by design flaws or by an error during the automotive factory build process. These errors can range from parts being installed incorrectly to a tool that was used to build the car not being removed or a batch of materials with structural or chemical flaws.
Consumer protection legislation typically labels vehicles as "lemons" if the same problem recurs despite multiple repair attempts (such as three times in a row over a short period, where previous attempts have not fixed the problem) or where defects have caused a new vehicle to be out of service for a prolonged period (typically thirty days or longer) for repairs.
The primary objective of these lemon laws is to force manufacturers to buy back defective vehicles or exchange them. Depending on the jurisdiction, a process similar to vehicle title branding may also be used to warn subsequent purchasers of the history of a problem vehicle. This portion of a vehicle's history is, however, often not retained with the vehicle title when exporting vehicles to another jurisdiction.
Consumer protection legislation typically labels vehicles as "lemons" if the same problem recurs despite multiple repair attempts (such as three times in a row over a short period, where previous attempts have not fixed the problem) or where defects have caused a new vehicle to be out of service for a prolonged period (typically thirty days or longer) for repairs.
The primary objective of these lemon laws is to force manufacturers to buy back defective vehicles or exchange them. Depending on the jurisdiction, a process similar to vehicle title branding may also be used to warn subsequent purchasers of the history of a problem vehicle. This portion of a vehicle's history is, however, often not retained with the vehicle title when exporting vehicles to another jurisdiction.
. Just to be clear, I want to deal directly with corporate, and if they can arrange the trade-up to a GS350, then all the better. Is my request too much?
.
Last edited by dunnojack; 02-15-07 at 11:36 PM.
02-16-07, 05:30 AM
#6
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bob, the service manager is the more appropriate contact person in this case for a buy back instead of the sales manager, and youre correct that it will probably entail a call to corporate customer satisfaction to get another case opened if it hasnt been closed already.
02-16-07, 07:40 AM
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maybe by bodywork they mean some structural adhesives, welds, or seam sealer.
I dont think they are going to cut the car up, patch it, paint it, etc...
hardly a case for a buy back, let them try to correct the problem using this last ditch effort, if it does not work then you have a stronger ground to stand on.
I dont think they are going to cut the car up, patch it, paint it, etc...
hardly a case for a buy back, let them try to correct the problem using this last ditch effort, if it does not work then you have a stronger ground to stand on.
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02-16-07, 07:53 AM
#8
Lexus Champion
Dunno,
I try to include the word bolt/bolts when discussing this because the lower portion of meta frame junction with parcel shelf extends left and right to body where you will find bolts if you pull away the velcro attached material on sides of inside of trunk.
As explained to me by body shop owner on my former, it is missing welds, that was his finding.
Though he also said, or threw in, if missing bolts or loose bolts are present thay can cause this too as that large an opening for the window gets it strength from sum of all attachments, including parcel shelf attachments left and right to body, so I try to include bolt whenever discussing this.
I try to include the word bolt/bolts when discussing this because the lower portion of meta frame junction with parcel shelf extends left and right to body where you will find bolts if you pull away the velcro attached material on sides of inside of trunk.
As explained to me by body shop owner on my former, it is missing welds, that was his finding.
Though he also said, or threw in, if missing bolts or loose bolts are present thay can cause this too as that large an opening for the window gets it strength from sum of all attachments, including parcel shelf attachments left and right to body, so I try to include bolt whenever discussing this.
02-16-07, 09:27 AM
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They stripped the interior to the bone, and still can't find the rattle, but you can clearly hear it. Does that make any sense? It doesn't make sense to me--- you hear it, but can't find it?? wtf?
This is odd behavior not found on 99% of this model, therefore I call it a lemon. If they recommend body work, then they are implying it is a structural defect.
If you don't call this irreparable jangling noise a lemon, then what do you call it? "Normal"?
This is odd behavior not found on 99% of this model, therefore I call it a lemon. If they recommend body work, then they are implying it is a structural defect.
If you don't call this irreparable jangling noise a lemon, then what do you call it? "Normal"?
I really feel for you here. I experienced exactly what you are going through...it is a frustrating, annoying, unwanted and unneccessary experience. In my case the only remedy was to get rid of the car...you will never be satisfied with it.
I was fortunate to have a very responsible dealer who gave me full value for the ES as a trade towards a negotiated price on an IS350. All I paid was a small difference and tax on the difference. Lexus corporate refused to help as all appeals for remedy fell on arrogant deaf ears. In effect they completely abdicated their responsibility for poor design/manufacture and downloaded the remedy responsibility to the dealer.
I just got my special order IS and am very happy with it.
As I am in Canada, I would suggest that you consider the recommendations made by US responders to your question as how to proceed. My one suggestion is to start this replacement process quickly and get it over and done with. It also helps to have low mileage on your ES.
Hope this helps. Let us know how you progress. Best of luck.
NGG
02-16-07, 09:55 AM
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Dunno,
I try to include the word bolt/bolts when discussing this because the lower portion of meta frame junction with parcel shelf extends left and right to body where you will find bolts if you pull away the velcro attached material on sides of inside of trunk.
As explained to me by body shop owner on my former, it is missing welds, that was his finding.
Though he also said, or threw in, if missing bolts or loose bolts are present thay can cause this too as that large an opening for the window gets it strength from sum of all attachments, including parcel shelf attachments left and right to body, so I try to include bolt whenever discussing this.
I try to include the word bolt/bolts when discussing this because the lower portion of meta frame junction with parcel shelf extends left and right to body where you will find bolts if you pull away the velcro attached material on sides of inside of trunk.
As explained to me by body shop owner on my former, it is missing welds, that was his finding.
Though he also said, or threw in, if missing bolts or loose bolts are present thay can cause this too as that large an opening for the window gets it strength from sum of all attachments, including parcel shelf attachments left and right to body, so I try to include bolt whenever discussing this.
02-16-07, 10:53 AM
#11
Lexus Champion
He didn't say, given the noise it makes I don't think he needed another to compare to anymore than dunno's dealer will send two ES350 to the body shop with one for comparison. He did say he himself owned a 98 ES300 but never said his findings had anything to do with that.
Seems there is more than art to being in the body shop business, some science involved too.
He is the reason dunno will verify I was repeatedly encouraging he keep taking the car back to look for missing welds, described the pound test to dunno, etc., so he could make dealer aware and now seems Lexus tech feels it needs to go for body shop to handle work required.
02-16-07, 01:49 PM
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a little bit of seam sealer or panel bonding adhesive while he was in there would have solved the problem. Maybe a rivet or a zip screw also.
I have had to correct problems myself plenty of times in the past, life is too short to be complaining to the dealer and driving the car back and forth getting aggrevated, if a few minutes while the car was apart could have solved the problem thats what I would have done.
Coupled with other problems then yes its sort of a "straw that broke the camel's back" deal.
Some of us are a bit of a scientist
I have had to correct problems myself plenty of times in the past, life is too short to be complaining to the dealer and driving the car back and forth getting aggrevated, if a few minutes while the car was apart could have solved the problem thats what I would have done.
Coupled with other problems then yes its sort of a "straw that broke the camel's back" deal.
Some of us are a bit of a scientist
02-16-07, 01:49 PM
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I believe in california you have to allow them to attempt to fix the problems before you can consider it a lemon (and those problems have to be considered a safety hazard). Unless of course you car has been in the shop for more than 30 days.. then I believe you automatically qualify. None the less, I say give a few lemon law lawyers a call, they should be able to tell you if you have a case or not.. and I think it's free (if you win lexus pays your legal fees, if you lose you can't be charged). Also, I bet if you send lexus a lemon law notice, they'll call you and offer you a buyback.. as they probably don't want to go through the hassel of court.
Don't quote me on any of this stuff, as I'm not a lawyer, its just what I remember from reading up on the lemon law process.
Don't quote me on any of this stuff, as I'm not a lawyer, its just what I remember from reading up on the lemon law process.
02-16-07, 02:22 PM
#14
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Thread Starter
I believe in california you have to allow them to attempt to fix the problems before you can consider it a lemon (and those problems have to be considered a safety hazard). Unless of course you car has been in the shop for more than 30 days.. then I believe you automatically qualify. None the less, I say give a few lemon law lawyers a call, they should be able to tell you if you have a case or not.. and I think it's free (if you win lexus pays your legal fees, if you lose you can't be charged). Also, I bet if you send lexus a lemon law notice, they'll call you and offer you a buyback.. as they probably don't want to go through the hassel of court.
Don't quote me on any of this stuff, as I'm not a lawyer, its just what I remember from reading up on the lemon law process.
Don't quote me on any of this stuff, as I'm not a lawyer, its just what I remember from reading up on the lemon law process.
You're right. I called up a lemon lawyer already, and it has to be in the shop over 30 days. I'm almost there though.
I may not have to fight Lexus yet, as I just found out that my dealer lied to me. The corporate technician did not come out and look at my car. The foreman and him only talked on the phone. They didn't even take apart my car. Without seeing a demo of the rattle, the corporate tech tells them to go weld some ******. This alone pisses me off. They've got a "don't give a ******" attitude.
The rattle is coming from the roof, and they want to put welds in the window frame.
02-16-07, 02:50 PM
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Rattles in the roof near the rear window are most likely caused by the Tire Pressure Monitor sensor. There is a TSB on this, and they have to pull off the headliner to effect this repair. To do that they also have to remove the pillar moldings (caps). None of this can be done without damaging or smudging the parts. This was done to my ES and it was this "gutted" condition that was the "straw" that made me insist on a replacement car.
It is incomprehinsible that Lexus puts its customers through this agony...they can only lose.
Start the replacement process quickly and get this over and done with....it is just not worth the agravation!
NGG