Transmission fluid
Rookie
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 96
Likes: 23
From: ca
I changed my SC430's ATF fluid myself at 223K mile via 6 exchange rounds. Last time by dealer was about 100K. After all that time, shifts had become slightly delayed in shifting and included a very brief hesitation between gears. After the change, the AT is back to being smooth shifting and progresses appropriately under acceleration. The old ATF was nasty smelling and the color of root beer. At 225K miles now and I'm clearly in the subgroup who wishes to prolong the life of the transmission. If it were a three year lease vehicle or under extended warranty, the priorities may be different.
A. Exchange too soon and you waste money.
B. Exchange before fluid becomes degraded enough to no longer protect transmission and let it operate normally --- prolong transmission life
C. Exchange (or even worse, power flush) after transmission is damaged and avoiding slipping only because debris in its ATF is letting worn parts grab -- too late and new fluid might stop transmission functionality.
D. Exchanget at any time with wrong fluid or wrong fill level --> dead transmission.
I'm following plan B and I think 60-70K is probably about right based on what I saw of my vehicle's ATF after 120K mile interval. I clearly waited too long with 120K miles since the dealer originally did it.
There is a risk of unmasking a bad transmission after too long an interval. I'm suspecting that's why my dealership never suggested another change. If they change ATF on a high mileage transmission and it soon thereafter fails, it's a hassle for them. On the other hand, If I drive it with old ATF and the transmission dies at >200K miles. Well, it's only natural and they would be happily charge for a new transmi$$ion.
A. Exchange too soon and you waste money.
B. Exchange before fluid becomes degraded enough to no longer protect transmission and let it operate normally --- prolong transmission life
C. Exchange (or even worse, power flush) after transmission is damaged and avoiding slipping only because debris in its ATF is letting worn parts grab -- too late and new fluid might stop transmission functionality.
D. Exchanget at any time with wrong fluid or wrong fill level --> dead transmission.
I'm following plan B and I think 60-70K is probably about right based on what I saw of my vehicle's ATF after 120K mile interval. I clearly waited too long with 120K miles since the dealer originally did it.
There is a risk of unmasking a bad transmission after too long an interval. I'm suspecting that's why my dealership never suggested another change. If they change ATF on a high mileage transmission and it soon thereafter fails, it's a hassle for them. On the other hand, If I drive it with old ATF and the transmission dies at >200K miles. Well, it's only natural and they would be happily charge for a new transmi$$ion.
Also noting Seattle SCone opted for the drain and fill method because his trans went too long in between fluid changes.
You, on the other hand, should get low power/low pressure 100% fluid exchange done through the machine hookup at your mileage, as there is no credible fear of damaging it at those low miles
Last edited by tronimrich; Feb 14, 2021 at 05:51 PM.
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 690
Likes: 25
From: South Austin, Texas
BUT with it being a closed system, I wonder how that will work. AT fluid will breakdown over time and become brown. I don’t understand why Lexus did this.
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Tn
It's a matter of how long you intend to use the vehicle. Lexus can state it is a lifetime transmission fluid and be truthful, provided you understand "lifetime" to be 7 to 10 years. Indeed, with a 70 to 100K mile lifespan, the original ATF is likely to allow the transmission to survive. Beyond that span, it's not the original owner's nor Lexus problem if the transmission fails beyond its "lifetime." A sealed ATF may allow the ATF fluid to last a bit longer due to reduced exposure to atmosphere via the fill tube, but still gradually degrades the ATF through heat and buildup of degradation products and mechanical debris. Lifetime is not forever.
Once a transmission begins to wear due to loss of ATF protection and lubrication, it's too late to save the transmission. The damage has already been done. It's after the owned "lifetime." so the manufacturer need not stand behind the product. The car is likely to have already passed to another owner by then. So it's nobody's responsibility at that point. Changing the ATF after damage has occurred may mean the transmission will stop working. Changing ATF before damage, minimize transmission wear.
On the other hand, if you are a later owner or someone who intends to keep the vehicle for a prolonged time, the strategy changes for prolonging AT lifespan. The game changes from "how long can I go before this breaks" to "how can I make this last as long as possible." In that scenario, periodic changes of the ATF before the ATF degrades is prudent. ATF fluid replacement will likely prolong AT lifespan beyond simply keeping old, degraded ATF in the system. So, it depends. Are you planning to keep the car a long time or going to get rid of it and don't care whether you are screwing over the next owner.
Both Lexus dealerships are "correct." The first is doing the right thing for someone who wants the car to last as long as possible. The second is correct for someone who only cares about limited years of usage and wants to minimize cost before dumping the vehicle (and its upcoming problems) onto someone else.
Once a transmission begins to wear due to loss of ATF protection and lubrication, it's too late to save the transmission. The damage has already been done. It's after the owned "lifetime." so the manufacturer need not stand behind the product. The car is likely to have already passed to another owner by then. So it's nobody's responsibility at that point. Changing the ATF after damage has occurred may mean the transmission will stop working. Changing ATF before damage, minimize transmission wear.
On the other hand, if you are a later owner or someone who intends to keep the vehicle for a prolonged time, the strategy changes for prolonging AT lifespan. The game changes from "how long can I go before this breaks" to "how can I make this last as long as possible." In that scenario, periodic changes of the ATF before the ATF degrades is prudent. ATF fluid replacement will likely prolong AT lifespan beyond simply keeping old, degraded ATF in the system. So, it depends. Are you planning to keep the car a long time or going to get rid of it and don't care whether you are screwing over the next owner.
Both Lexus dealerships are "correct." The first is doing the right thing for someone who wants the car to last as long as possible. The second is correct for someone who only cares about limited years of usage and wants to minimize cost before dumping the vehicle (and its upcoming problems) onto someone else.
I am trying to keep this car for another 50k or more miles and have been told by one lexus service manager that they would first inspect the liquid and if they see it is too burnt or dark, that they would leave it alone and not do anything with it. They would only do a flush for the around $500 (expensive)
So, I am not sure how to approach this since I have to rely on the word of a tech who will determine whether or not I need this done and since I do not trust their word because they are more driven by getting services done, then I wonder if just doing a drain and fill somewhere else is the way to go in a situation in which the fluid will obviously be dark and burnt from 110k miles.
Do you guys feel that at 110k miles a drain a fill is 1) Needed and 2) the safest approach vs flushing?
Is there are way to mess it up with a drain and fill if not done properly vs a flush? Like overfilling it or under filling due to the drain happening when the liquid was still hot and expanded etc?
I was quoted around $250 for a drain and fill at a toyota dealer and since this is an avalon, would this be a safe way to do this vs the $500 flush at Lexus.
Decisions... thanks
Rookie
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 96
Likes: 23
From: ca
At 110k the fluid is probably ok to be flushed, but there is a small chance that upon inspection it is too burnt or too dark or heavens forbid, there are metal flakes in it, but I doubt it
I think most service departments check trans fluid at 60k, 90k, and 120k, to see when a first flush is necessary. My 5th gen had its first plush at 90k. I would think 110k depending on how its been driven would also be ok for a flush
If its too burnt/dark/has flakes, then the drain and fill method is all you can safely do
I think most service departments check trans fluid at 60k, 90k, and 120k, to see when a first flush is necessary. My 5th gen had its first plush at 90k. I would think 110k depending on how its been driven would also be ok for a flush
If its too burnt/dark/has flakes, then the drain and fill method is all you can safely do
Rookie
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 33
Likes: 3
From: ON
I have been looking into this for my 110k mile Es350 that has never had an AT flush or drain. You nail it with what you describe
I am trying to keep this car for another 50k or more miles and have been told by one lexus service manager that they would first inspect the liquid and if they see it is too burnt or dark, that they would leave it alone and not do anything with it. They would only do a flush for the around $500 (expensive)
So, I am not sure how to approach this since I have to rely on the word of a tech who will determine whether or not I need this done and since I do not trust their word because they are more driven by getting services done, then I wonder if just doing a drain and fill somewhere else is the way to go in a situation in which the fluid will obviously be dark and burnt from 110k miles.
Do you guys feel that at 110k miles a drain a fill is 1) Needed and 2) the safest approach vs flushing?
Is there are way to mess it up with a drain and fill if not done properly vs a flush? Like overfilling it or under filling due to the drain happening when the liquid was still hot and expanded etc?
I was quoted around $250 for a drain and fill at a toyota dealer and since this is an avalon, would this be a safe way to do this vs the $500 flush at Lexus.
Decisions... thanks
I am trying to keep this car for another 50k or more miles and have been told by one lexus service manager that they would first inspect the liquid and if they see it is too burnt or dark, that they would leave it alone and not do anything with it. They would only do a flush for the around $500 (expensive)
So, I am not sure how to approach this since I have to rely on the word of a tech who will determine whether or not I need this done and since I do not trust their word because they are more driven by getting services done, then I wonder if just doing a drain and fill somewhere else is the way to go in a situation in which the fluid will obviously be dark and burnt from 110k miles.
Do you guys feel that at 110k miles a drain a fill is 1) Needed and 2) the safest approach vs flushing?
Is there are way to mess it up with a drain and fill if not done properly vs a flush? Like overfilling it or under filling due to the drain happening when the liquid was still hot and expanded etc?
I was quoted around $250 for a drain and fill at a toyota dealer and since this is an avalon, would this be a safe way to do this vs the $500 flush at Lexus.
Decisions... thanks
Racer
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,250
Likes: 423
From: Alberta
What this video says explains a lot:
Last edited by Tootsall; Feb 28, 2021 at 08:33 AM.
Rookie
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 33
Likes: 3
From: ON
[QUOTE=Tootsall;11003282]And I wonder how many dealer service departments actually perform that complicated procedure or just do what you did. I got a quote of $170 Cdn or $120 US from a Toyota dealer last year. Remember that a drain, fill, drive, repeat three times is generally required to get most of the old stuff out. Can’t see that being done with less than an hour of labour.
I paid $110 CAD at my mechanic and did the inspection on the car. He just drain and fill. The Erin mills dealer charge $200 doing pretty much the same thing. They said the fluid should last a life time but they will change it if you want. I bought a 2015 RX350 a few months ago with 120k miles. I change the battery and the trans fluid on it. The fluid was dark. The car run great so far. I'll probably change the fluid again at 30k miles. Maybe do it myself this time.
I paid $110 CAD at my mechanic and did the inspection on the car. He just drain and fill. The Erin mills dealer charge $200 doing pretty much the same thing. They said the fluid should last a life time but they will change it if you want. I bought a 2015 RX350 a few months ago with 120k miles. I change the battery and the trans fluid on it. The fluid was dark. The car run great so far. I'll probably change the fluid again at 30k miles. Maybe do it myself this time.
ClubLexus Stories
Celebrating Lexus & Toyota from Around the Globe
Top 10 Most Confusing Things Lexus Has Ever Done!
Joe Kucinski
2026 Lexus ES Review: Lexus Re-Embraces Founding Principles
Michael S. Palmer
10 Lexus Bargains That are Cheaper Than a New Toyota RAV4
Joe Kucinski
8 Weirdest Things Lexus Has Ever Built
Verdad Gallardo
10 Lexus Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
8 Tips for Improving Your Hybrid or Plug-in Hybrid's Efficiency!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Best Lexus Models No One Remembers
Joe Kucinski
TRD Off-Road Premium: Best 2026 4Runner, Except This One Thing
Michael S. Palmer
Top 10 Lexus & Toyotas to Drive Before You Die!
Joe Kucinski
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 317
Likes: 49
From: QC
I looked up the prices at a few dealership. They vary, as do how they do it. Some flush, some drain and fill, and some, unfortunately, will tell you the ATF is "lifetime". At my dealer, they use a flush machine, and they replace the filter for $199.95.
Speaking about my car, precisely, this was done at 104k miles. I don't know what color was the fluid, but the car drives as good as before, i.e. very smoothly except some times during city driving where shifts can be slightly felt if I vary my speed all the time. An improvement I noticed is there is no more lag when going into gear.
Speaking about my car, precisely, this was done at 104k miles. I don't know what color was the fluid, but the car drives as good as before, i.e. very smoothly except some times during city driving where shifts can be slightly felt if I vary my speed all the time. An improvement I noticed is there is no more lag when going into gear.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,537
Likes: 2,592
New fluid always > old fluid. In any car, in any drivetrain component. Stuff breaks down. Second law of thermodynamics.
Lifetime fill is purely marketing, brand image.
There's all sorts of anecdotal evidence, stories, promoting one way or the other. Anything under the sun can happen. But newer fluid is always better than older fluid in terms of protection and performance properties.
It all comes down to your personal risk assessment and whether or not changing fluid has any value to you.
Lifetime fill is purely marketing, brand image.
There's all sorts of anecdotal evidence, stories, promoting one way or the other. Anything under the sun can happen. But newer fluid is always better than older fluid in terms of protection and performance properties.
It all comes down to your personal risk assessment and whether or not changing fluid has any value to you.
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 516
Likes: 203
From: Georgia
Here we go again. I have been working on cars over 40 years and after reviewing all of my previous post, and all of the post on transmission fluid changes, I have come to the following conclusion;
I have been doing it wrong for over 40 years.....
Transmission fluid is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your transmission
Engine Oil is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your engine
Coolant is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your cooling system
Brake Fluid is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your braking system
Power steering, differential, A/C compressor etc. …………………………………………………….
Just put gas in it and drive it
I have been doing it wrong for over 40 years.....
Transmission fluid is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your transmission
Engine Oil is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your engine
Coolant is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your cooling system
Brake Fluid is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your braking system
Power steering, differential, A/C compressor etc. …………………………………………………….
Just put gas in it and drive it
Racer
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,250
Likes: 423
From: Alberta
I'm copy/pasting this over from something I posted in the Gen 7 forum where there was a discussion on Service quality at Lexus/Toyota. Seems pertinent here:
Quote "LOL... funny how experiences can differ. I just phoned my Toyota dealer to get a quote on a transmission fluid change. The service advisor said she didn't know much about the technique used but she'd go and ask a technician. She came back on the line and said "they open the drain plug, drain it out, and replace the oil which checking the temperature on Techstream". I asked if they repeat that to get most of the fluid out of the torque converter.... "I don't know". OK, how much is the job? "$199.95 Cdn ($160 US)" Does that include changing the fluid filter? "Yes" (How do they get the filter out through the drain plug?) So then I asked to speak to the service supervisor. He called me back...I started asking him questions and "well, I'm not really a car guy so I'd have to get a technician to call you back"!!!!!! Pretty obvious these S.A.s and Supervisors are just there to get cash coming in the door any way they can. Guess I'll wait and see how long it takes the "technician" to call me back now. Wonder if the dealership owner has any idea how things are done? (Don't make me laugh too hard).
Reminds me of when I first picked up the car at the Lexus dealership....asked the Technical Advisor where the transmission dipstick was....he didn't have a clue. (I didn't say I was looking at him...but it was difficult not to say something).
Update the next morning: Just managed to speak to a different service advisor whom I've dealt with in the past, and he confirmed they do the "three times" drain and refill using Techstream to ensure final fill is correct temperature/level. Also that they do NOT change the filter which is really just a screen anyway." End Quote
The S.A. I spoke to does drives an Avalon so I was pretty sure he'd know what I was talking about. He agreed that 80,000 miles was probably a good time to get it changed since we have no idea how the car was used in the past (was a Lexus lease...likely mostly city driving). Given the reduced driving that is getting done right now and my age (which seems to advance every year), it'll likely be the only time this needs to be done so it's cheap insurance. YMMV as they say.
Quote "LOL... funny how experiences can differ. I just phoned my Toyota dealer to get a quote on a transmission fluid change. The service advisor said she didn't know much about the technique used but she'd go and ask a technician. She came back on the line and said "they open the drain plug, drain it out, and replace the oil which checking the temperature on Techstream". I asked if they repeat that to get most of the fluid out of the torque converter.... "I don't know". OK, how much is the job? "$199.95 Cdn ($160 US)" Does that include changing the fluid filter? "Yes" (How do they get the filter out through the drain plug?) So then I asked to speak to the service supervisor. He called me back...I started asking him questions and "well, I'm not really a car guy so I'd have to get a technician to call you back"!!!!!! Pretty obvious these S.A.s and Supervisors are just there to get cash coming in the door any way they can. Guess I'll wait and see how long it takes the "technician" to call me back now. Wonder if the dealership owner has any idea how things are done? (Don't make me laugh too hard).
Reminds me of when I first picked up the car at the Lexus dealership....asked the Technical Advisor where the transmission dipstick was....he didn't have a clue. (I didn't say I was looking at him...but it was difficult not to say something).
Update the next morning: Just managed to speak to a different service advisor whom I've dealt with in the past, and he confirmed they do the "three times" drain and refill using Techstream to ensure final fill is correct temperature/level. Also that they do NOT change the filter which is really just a screen anyway." End Quote
The S.A. I spoke to does drives an Avalon so I was pretty sure he'd know what I was talking about. He agreed that 80,000 miles was probably a good time to get it changed since we have no idea how the car was used in the past (was a Lexus lease...likely mostly city driving). Given the reduced driving that is getting done right now and my age (which seems to advance every year), it'll likely be the only time this needs to be done so it's cheap insurance. YMMV as they say.
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 780
Likes: 261
From: MA
Here we go again. I have been working on cars over 40 years and after reviewing all of my previous post, and all of the post on transmission fluid changes, I have come to the following conclusion;
I have been doing it wrong for over 40 years.....
Transmission fluid is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your transmission
Engine Oil is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your engine
Coolant is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your cooling system
Brake Fluid is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your braking system
Power steering, differential, A/C compressor etc. …………………………………………………….
Just put gas in it and drive it
I have been doing it wrong for over 40 years.....
Transmission fluid is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your transmission
Engine Oil is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your engine
Coolant is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your cooling system
Brake Fluid is lifetime fluid, it will last the lifetime of your braking system
Power steering, differential, A/C compressor etc. …………………………………………………….
Just put gas in it and drive it
Pit Crew
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 135
Likes: 19
From: Delaware
Here's the logic of the situation (as I see it):
The transmission does not have a lifetime warranty, it has the Lexus (Toyota, GM, VW, BMW, FIAT, etc.) warranty for X thousand miles.
Thus, "Lifetime Transmission Fluid" implies that the fluid will last the lifetime of the transmission.
When the transmission dies, so does the lifetime of the transmission fluid.
The manufacturer's responsibility and liability on the transmission is limited to their express warranty, unless you want to take them to court.
The consensus among automobile mechanics and transmission repair shops is that transmission fluid ages, degrades, and get dirty.
They also believe that replacing aged, degraded and dirty fluid, with new fluid, can help maximize the life of an automatic transmission.
You pays your money, and you takes your chances. As for me, I like to change the trans fluid, the oil, power steering fluid, and brake fluid.
The transmission does not have a lifetime warranty, it has the Lexus (Toyota, GM, VW, BMW, FIAT, etc.) warranty for X thousand miles.
Thus, "Lifetime Transmission Fluid" implies that the fluid will last the lifetime of the transmission.
When the transmission dies, so does the lifetime of the transmission fluid.
The manufacturer's responsibility and liability on the transmission is limited to their express warranty, unless you want to take them to court.
The consensus among automobile mechanics and transmission repair shops is that transmission fluid ages, degrades, and get dirty.
They also believe that replacing aged, degraded and dirty fluid, with new fluid, can help maximize the life of an automatic transmission.
You pays your money, and you takes your chances. As for me, I like to change the trans fluid, the oil, power steering fluid, and brake fluid.
