Notices
ES - 1st to 6th Gen (1990-2018) Forum for all 1990 - 2018 ES Models

Engine Surging/Misfiring

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Sep 8, 2020 | 11:25 AM
  #1  
Hayk's Avatar
Hayk
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
15 Year Member
Shutterbug
Liked
Loved
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,119
Likes: 311
From: NJ
Default Engine Surging/Misfiring

1998 ES300 297,000 miles.

Engine has been having issues intermittently since December 2019. First it was having issues starting on about 3 separate occasions over the course of 3 months during the winter. Engine was cranking but not starting. 2 out of 3 times it started by modulating the gas pedal. 3rd time it took multiple days for it to start. Haven’t had starting issues since February.

Now this summer the engine started to run very poorly on cold starts and feels like a misfire, especially when I put it in gear (RPM below 1000).

It will also started to surge when cruising on the highway in top gear. Only way to get it to stop is to let go of the gas pedal and let it coast for a moment before reapplying the gas.

I got a flashing CEL for a Cylinder 5 misfire one day after a cold start while driving at about 40MPH. That gave me a clue to check my Fuel Trim with Live Data using BlueDriver.

I was able to confirm that my Bank 1 fuel trim spikes rapidly when the engine is surging on the highway and then it goes back to normal when I let go of the gas. I saw very high values for a split moment.

Bank 1 Short Term -25%
Bank 1 Long Term 50%

I know this is pointing me towards issue with Bank 1 where Cylinder 5 is located but I don’t know what it actually could mean.

Is there other Live Data that I should monitor to get a complete picture?

I replaced my spark plugs and fuel filter a year ago. I wonder if I messed something up that started to cause all these issues. During the winter I tried spraying some carb cleaning into the IACV and cleaning the throttle body but it didn’t help.

Reply
Old Sep 8, 2020 | 12:08 PM
  #2  
LeX2K's Avatar
LeX2K
Lexus Fanatic
15 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,142
Likes: 4,364
From: Alberta
Default

What about coils and especially spark plug wires? The wires going to the rear bank tend to fail eventually.
Reply
Old Sep 8, 2020 | 02:10 PM
  #3  
Hayk's Avatar
Hayk
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
15 Year Member
Shutterbug
Liked
Loved
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,119
Likes: 311
From: NJ
Default

Originally Posted by Lexus2000
What about coils and especially spark plug wires? The wires going to the rear bank tend to fail eventually.
I replaced the cables in 2011 when I got the car with 173k miles. My engine has 3 coils on Bank 2 in the front and 3 wires going to the rear Bank 1.

Do you think a loose wire/connection could cause such behavior?
Reply
Old Sep 8, 2020 | 04:19 PM
  #4  
LeX2K's Avatar
LeX2K
Lexus Fanatic
15 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,142
Likes: 4,364
From: Alberta
Default

Are you sure the wires are good? What brand? Also check each injector connector (pull out and inspect). Could also be a bad ignition coil.
Reply
Old Sep 8, 2020 | 05:39 PM
  #5  
Hayk's Avatar
Hayk
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
15 Year Member
Shutterbug
Liked
Loved
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,119
Likes: 311
From: NJ
Default

Originally Posted by Lexus2000
Are you sure the wires are good? What brand? Also check each injector connector (pull out and inspect). Could also be a bad ignition coil.
Ok I will do that. I also found another DTC in the system



Reply
Old Sep 8, 2020 | 07:15 PM
  #6  
Oro's Avatar
Oro
Pole Position
10 Year Member
Community Builder
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,466
Likes: 920
From: wa
Default

yes, like Lexus2000 said, likely a coil. At that mileage, not unexpected. if you have to go in there for that, then change them all back there and new iridium plugs. As an economy measure, I have used low-mile take-off genuine coils with great success over the years, and also Autolite iridium plugs on this engine. And of course, pcv valve back there.
Reply
Old Sep 11, 2020 | 09:22 PM
  #7  
Hayk's Avatar
Hayk
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
15 Year Member
Shutterbug
Liked
Loved
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,119
Likes: 311
From: NJ
Default

So I’ve been driving the car more often and monitoring the Fuel Trim, Engine Coolant Temp, and O2 voltage.

I know very little in this field, but I noticed my Fuel Trim numbers hover around 7-10% in total per bank. Today it was in the high 60s F outside and I noticed my coolant temp was at 165-167F on the highway with the AC off. Then while I was idling after a long drive with outside temperature at 65F, the ECT went up as high as 198F and then leveled off around 190F.

My thermostat is original, radiator was replaced two years ago, coolant is fresh. Haven’t checked if both fans work, I know at least one works when the AC is on. But what is the normal operating temperature? It feels like 167 is too low for highway driving and 198 is too high for idling. I was thinking 170-185 is ideal.

O2 sensor on Bank 2 was replaced in 2014 with a Denso 234-9009. Bank 1 received the same sensor in 2012.

I would expect good Fuel Trim values to be below 5% per bank. I believe 20% is when the computer sets a code. Maybe the O2 sensors are to blame? Especially with that DTC for Bank 1 P1133 (slow response from O2 sensor).

Reason I bring all of this up is because my fuel economy has been very poor as well. I’ve been averaging 20MPG per tank since April and I try to take it out on the highway for about 60-70% of the driving.

Maybe there is unmetered air coming in as well?

I guess I have to start with a good through inspection. Check all spark plugs, the wires, listen for hissing sounds? Check both fans.

I’m also thinking of installing a new thermostat when I do the timing belt/WP.

Last but not least, my AC compressor has been making a racket on cold starts and the pulley is visibly shaking when it’s engaged. Maybe that’s also putting a drag on the engine?
Reply
Old Sep 11, 2020 | 10:24 PM
  #8  
LeX2K's Avatar
LeX2K
Lexus Fanatic
15 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,142
Likes: 4,364
From: Alberta
Default

You probably need a new thermostat the OEM ones go bad eventually and do exactly what you are noticing, the engine temps drop during high speed driving. This is because the 'stat is designed to fail in the open position to prevent overheating.
Reply
ClubLexus Stories

Celebrating Lexus & Toyota from Around the Globe

story-0

Toyota and Lexus Join Mille Miglia For The First Time

 Verdad Gallardo
story-1

Lexus NX 350h: A Fuel-Sipping Secret Hot Hatch???

 Michael S. Palmer
story-2

5 Best & 5 Worst Lexus Daily Drivers

 Joe Kucinski
story-3

Top 5 Hottest Lexus & Toyotas in 2026 (Hardest To Buy)

 Brett Foote
story-4

2026 Lexus IS 350 F Sport Review: The Last of Its Kind Still Rocks

 Michael S. Palmer
story-5

Top 10 Most Confusing Things Lexus Has Ever Done!

 Joe Kucinski
story-6

2026 Lexus ES Review: Lexus Re-Embraces Founding Principles

 Michael S. Palmer
story-7

10 Lexus Bargains That are Cheaper Than a New Toyota RAV4

 Joe Kucinski
story-8

8 Weirdest Things Lexus Has Ever Built

 Verdad Gallardo
story-9

10 Lexus Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine

 Verdad Gallardo
Old Sep 12, 2020 | 07:04 PM
  #9  
Hayk's Avatar
Hayk
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
15 Year Member
Shutterbug
Liked
Loved
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,119
Likes: 311
From: NJ
Default

Originally Posted by Lexus2000
You probably need a new thermostat the OEM ones go bad eventually and do exactly what you are noticing, the engine temps drop during high speed driving. This is because the 'stat is designed to fail in the open position to prevent overheating.
What’s strange is it doesn’t seem to be stuck open, because the engine comes up to temp rather quickly after a cold start.

We had similar outside temp today at 65-67F.

Cruising on the highway with ECT at 167 or 171F, without or with A/C respectively.

Idling at 192-199F after a 40min drive.

Both cooling fans kick on and off automatically. I noticed they kicked on when it got to 199F. Didn’t matter if the A/C was on or off.

Coolant is at the right level, didn’t see any leaks.

Today I had the same misfire feeling on the highway. Observed the Bank 1 Fuel Trim reach 19.5% Short Term and 52.3% Long Term at its higher point, while going about 75MPH uphill. Once I slowed down and let it coast, it went back to normal again.

Here is a screenshot of that moment.





This article explains High Fuel Trim numbers

https://www.autoserviceprofessional....t-work-for-you

Possible causes:
  • Unmeasured air is reaching the combustion chambers.
  • Less than the commanded amount of fuel is reaching the combustion chambers.
  • One or more sensors is reporting incorrectly.

and it recommends to check fuel trim for “at least 30 seconds at three different engine speeds: idle, 1,500 rpm and 2,500 rpm.”

My issues seems to happen at low idle speeds and under load around 2500-3000RPM.


“Low fuel delivery will cause an increase in LTFT as the PCM tries to compensate for extra oxygen in the exhaust stream. Remember, the PCM doesn’t measure fuel flow; it only knows injector pulse width and assumes fuel delivery is correct as commanded. Is equivalence ratio changing, too? If you add propane and see LTFT and equivalence ratio numbers come down, there probably is a fuel delivery problem. If there’s no change, an oxygen sensor may be faulty or shorted to ground. Don’t forget to check this at different speeds and loads, because fuel flow problems often don’t show up at idle.”

Maybe I have an injector issue? I’m thinking if it was a fuel pressure or fuel flow problem with the pump it would show on both cylinder banks and not just Bank 1.

Another possibility is a bad O2 sensor for Bank 1 or an exhaust leak at the Bank 1 exhaust manifold letting in oxygen before the sensor.

Last edited by Hayk; Sep 12, 2020 at 07:32 PM.
Reply
Old Sep 12, 2020 | 07:14 PM
  #10  
LeX2K's Avatar
LeX2K
Lexus Fanatic
15 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,142
Likes: 4,364
From: Alberta
Default

High speed driving means way more cooling, if the 'stat is lazy it will cause your temperature issue. Maybe your thermostat isn't bad but it sounds exactly like what I've seen many times.
Reply
Old Sep 12, 2020 | 07:36 PM
  #11  
Hayk's Avatar
Hayk
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
15 Year Member
Shutterbug
Liked
Loved
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,119
Likes: 311
From: NJ
Default

Originally Posted by Lexus2000
High speed driving means way more cooling, if the 'stat is lazy it will cause your temperature issue. Maybe your thermostat isn't bad but it sounds exactly like what I've seen many times.
That makes sense, I will definitely replace it in the near future. What’s crazy is the temp gauge is in the middle even when ECT is at 199F. It has such a wide range for “normal”.
Reply
Old Sep 13, 2020 | 04:37 PM
  #12  
Oro's Avatar
Oro
Pole Position
10 Year Member
Community Builder
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,466
Likes: 920
From: wa
Default

Originally Posted by Hayk
That makes sense, I will definitely replace it in the near future. What’s crazy is the temp gauge is in the middle even when ECT is at 199F. It has such a wide range for “normal”.
I think Lexus2000 is right; I've seen that a few times, too.

The lower-dollar stant, etc. thermostats are extremely flimsy compared to the OE one. Try to get a better one if you can.
Reply
Old Sep 30, 2020 | 06:54 PM
  #13  
Hayk's Avatar
Hayk
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
15 Year Member
Shutterbug
Liked
Loved
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,119
Likes: 311
From: NJ
Default

So I went through all the spark plugs today and inspected their wires & ignition coils. Didn't see any obvious issues.










I followed the factory service manual for Ignition and used a multimeter set on Ohms.

Measured the wires for resistance and they're all within spec.

High Tension Cord Resistance
Factory values: max 25 kOhm
My measurements:

Cylinders 1-4: 7.21 kOhm

Cylinders 3-6: 9.24 kOhm

Cylinders 5-2: 8.25 kOhm

Measured the ignition coils for primary resistance while cold (outside temp 70F).

Primary Coil Resistance
Factory values:
Cold 0.70-0.94 kOhm
Hot 0.85-1.10 kOhm

My measurements:

#2: 1.1 kOhm

#4: 1.1 kOhm

#6: 1.1 kOhm

Just as a troubleshooting step, I swapped Ignition Coil #2 and #4 with each other, as #2 is connected with Cylinder 5 which has been setting a misfiring code.

I noticed a wet spot under the Fuel Pulsation Damper on the Bank 1 Air Assist Hose connection. I ran the engine while keeping an eye on that connection but didn't see an active leak, so I sprayed it off with some cleaner and will monitor for the next few drives.









Found this video for replacing the damper and it looks very straight forward.



Not sure if this is the culprit or if I have a bad fuel injector. It looks the plastic cover on the damper can be removed for a closer look.
I'm gonna check the intake hoses for leaks and clean the MAF, IACV, and Throttle Body.
There is also a resistance check for injectors, that I might do if the issue is unresolved.
Reply
Old Sep 30, 2020 | 07:30 PM
  #14  
LeX2K's Avatar
LeX2K
Lexus Fanatic
15 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,142
Likes: 4,364
From: Alberta
Default

That damper is known to fail and leak as a result.

edit - 23207-20011 (replaces 23270-62010) is $80 for new OEM I see them used on Ebay for $25.
Reply
Old Sep 30, 2020 | 07:35 PM
  #15  
Hayk's Avatar
Hayk
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
15 Year Member
Shutterbug
Liked
Loved
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,119
Likes: 311
From: NJ
Default

Originally Posted by Lexus2000
That damper is known to fail and leak as a result.

edit - 23207-20011 (replaces 23270-62010) is $80 for new OEM I see them used on Ebay for $25.
I'm thinking this would make sense why my Fuel Trim goes really high on Bank 1. The damper is on Bank 1, even though there is a crossover pipe to Bank 2.
Also it's closest to Cylinder 5, so maybe when it leaks that cylinder loses the most fuel pressure?
Maybe it's leaking intermittently and that's what's causing the rough idle, surging under heavy load, and maybe even the no-start when it was cold outside?
Reply



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:16 PM.

story-0
Toyota and Lexus Join Mille Miglia For The First Time

Slideshow: A five-car lineup spanning more than five decades of Toyota performance and engineering will tackle one of Italy's most celebrated automotive routes.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-06-15 16:53:16


VIEW MORE
story-1
Lexus NX 350h: A Fuel-Sipping Secret Hot Hatch???

Slideshow: a quick review of the 2026 Lexus NX 350h F Sport Handling

By Michael S. Palmer | 2026-06-15 15:25:34


VIEW MORE
story-2
5 Best & 5 Worst Lexus Daily Drivers

Slideshow: The 5 best and 5 worst Lexus daily drivers

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-06-15 11:14:58


VIEW MORE
story-3
Top 5 Hottest Lexus & Toyotas in 2026 (Hardest To Buy)

These five Lexus and Toyota models are the most sought-after on the market right now.

By Brett Foote | 2026-06-15 10:47:52


VIEW MORE
story-4
2026 Lexus IS 350 F Sport Review: The Last of Its Kind Still Rocks

Slideshow: the 2026 IS 350 isn't all that new, and that's why we love it!

By Michael S. Palmer | 2026-06-04 14:35:23


VIEW MORE
story-5
Top 10 Most Confusing Things Lexus Has Ever Done!

Slideshow: 10 most confusing things Lexus has ever done.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-06-04 09:40:55


VIEW MORE
story-6
2026 Lexus ES Review: Lexus Re-Embraces Founding Principles

Slideshow: Our First-Drive Review of the 2026 Lexus ES!

By Michael S. Palmer | 2026-05-29 20:30:16


VIEW MORE
story-7
10 Lexus Bargains That are Cheaper Than a New Toyota RAV4

Slideshow: 10 Lexus bargain that are cheaper than a new Toyota.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-05-20 10:28:20


VIEW MORE
story-8
8 Weirdest Things Lexus Has Ever Built

Slideshow: From hoverboards to luxury yachts, these are the strangest projects Lexus has ever attached its badge to.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-16 11:34:36


VIEW MORE
story-9
10 Lexus Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine

Slideshow: Some luxury cars chase trends, but these Lexus models look better now than they did when they first rolled into showrooms.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-06 17:58:29


VIEW MORE