Pretty sure my post said it depends on the brand:

Yep, it did.

For a company like Toyota, reliability and long term quality are part of their brand image and selling proposition, so for them its really important. People who choose to buy Toyotas care about those attributes, and if they faltered it would impact their primary buyer.

People who buy German and British cars, clearly don't care because they have poor reputations for long term reliability that buyers know when they choose to buy them.

At the end of the day, Mercedes and BMW could make cars that score as high on reliability ratings as Toyota and Lexus, but they focus on other areas and their customers are fine with that.

 

I respectfully disagree. Since more than twice as many people buy used as buy new (including leases) each year, I think "most," rather than "some," people care about the long-term value of ownership.

Too, regardless of how old of a used vehicle is being bought: two, four, six, or, eight-years-old, educated buyers will pick the more reliable brands. Uneducated buyers may buy German, but only up until they learn the hard way just how expensive a cheap used German luxury model can be to own. My guess is "most" only go this route once!

 

So you disagree with because more people think about long term value vs what I said which was some?

 

Yes, I believe long term reliability and value is important to used car buyers, who also happen to be more than twice the number of new car buyers. When you say "some," it minimizes the number and makes it sound like only a minority care, while I contend that "most" people care about long term value. I conceded in an earlier post that "some" don't care at all and instead seek vehicles for style, features and performance.

I generally agree with your posts and appreciate your knowledge. Beside me, you seem to be one of the biggest Toyota fans on CL. Too, I know you appreciate Toyota's reliability and long term value. Just saying...don't underestimate the typical buyer's appreciation for vehicles with great reliability ratings.

 

I agree that most buyers are concerned with long term reliability. However, it isn't a priority in the luxury segment as most of that segment leases (even Lexus). Reliability isn't much of a factor if you only keep the car for 3 years and under the warranty period.

 

The main difference between a 3-year-old lemon and a 10-year-old lemon is that you usually are not paying for repairs on one 3 years old or less. But it's still the same inconvenience....and perhaps the need or a loaner car. And, of course after 10 years, you usually expect repairs.

 

The reliability difference between a 3 yr Toyota and 3 yr bmw is very very small. It doesn't drive the decision on most leases.

 

The point is car manufacturers don't care about those buyers, because those buyers aren't their customers. Their customers are new buyers.

 

Have not purchased a used car for a very long time. So I guess I automatically shape my view around new car purchasers….I also “think” buy over “lease” so I probably shape around that too. So yeah, lots of pre owners owners that would think about long term reliability, you,are right . As for expensive German cars, if someone’s wealthy or rich, long term reliability and repair costs may or not be relevant as they have the money to fix them. Leasing is great for some German cars as the design changes so often..so it is easier to get into a new one quicker and faster, the design of a Mercedes is also nice to see, same with a new BMW… I do remember a thread “What scares you about an S-class?’ Or something like it..so if you are rich or truly wealthy, the V12 S600 from 1996 is nice to have for the long term.

Thanks so much for the nice comments. Now for Toyota, my favourite brand indeed I have followed them since the early 1980s. They are not perfect and they do not make the best performing cars for the most part, I believe they are usually average or above average. I also do not believe that a Toyota is worth leasing, or owning for the short term. They are really desirable or worth it for the long haul, I not sure about the Lexus cars on long term ownership but the GX or LX are for the very long haul. I got addicted to Toyota’s as they seldom break in my experience. My current long termed, 04 4R we have never had a fault for the first 15 years it was on the road. Just every single day it always worked, every single day for those 15 years. This was the same with all my previous Toyota’s before. The same thing with current Corolla which is 7 years old now. The same for our 09 Matrix, And then my new baby, my lovely 21 4R which I waited forever to get. Comes with a stupid 3rd row cause Toyota Canada does import 2 rows…my Matrix burns a LOT of oil, they did a dealer test and it didn’t pass Toyota rules for rebuilt cuz they are super cheap when they went to be. I do think that Japan made Toyota’s are designed better than US designs,..;how does a hilux have a fully boxed frame…but the Tacoma does not. My two North American made cars feel like they age a bit where my SUVs never feel aged. Reliability, I don’t think there is a diff in reliability.

Now for my favourite car…it’s the Corolla, so easy to live with, so basic but gives no stress,…EVERYTHING is simply to operate..My new 4R has HVAC controls at the bottom of the display so I have to take my eyes off the road to push the right button. My new 4R has auto high beam..yeah cool but it is off/on/off/on/off/on way to many freaking times…I hate the radar cruise control…HATE IT…I also do not like push button…it’s my second car I have ever had but it suck ovesr a key…full time 4wd yeah yeah it’s great…large 4,0 V6 is nice…but my V8 from 04 is better…the quality is super too…the materials and build quality of the 04 is better. …..the gas sucks as it took me $109 to fill my tank the other day and low gas light had not yet come on…none of this crap worth the car …so back to Corolla, it’s freaking simple…no crappy radar to annoy me, (just use my hand). It’s cheap to fuel, $40 takes me 690kms COMBINED…there is almost no maintenance..original 2014 brakes, at 7mm front, 4mm in the drum (5mm max)…it’s also super light, a 2900lbs I think, so easy on the road, curves you don’t feel the weight…so small and easy to back up, or to move around…my second favourite car is my 04 4R V8 great quality, nicer ride than my 21 cuz of the tires, pretty easy to operate accept the dumb push button HVAC compared to my Corolla or Matrix..the detail of the 04 is off the charts compared to my others and other brand too..(for example, I have a real metal/steal lever to charge the tilt of my steering wheel. In addition to a separate telescope…the air filter in the cabin you have to use a screwdriver tool to unscrew bolts to change the filter where it’s cheap plastic Matrix is my 3rd favourite as its also so simple to use…it’s got some juice in the 2.4 and handles sporty but the gas is bad…and it’s burns oil ….the worst of my cars is the new 214R…the f’ing screen…the stupid beeps and dumb stuff to distract me…the idiotic size wheels which just blows the ride compared to the 04. There is also no lights on the front and back running board…but full time 4wd is awesome…cheapskates at Toyota non-lock gas door…

Hybirds…I hated them back then…hated the CT as you could tell when it was EV vs Gas and it’s not silent like they say..but now, look at how many there are…gas prices in Canada is $5.50US gallons, so it just makes sense and they are everywhere…new Tundra hybrid is going to be the best driving truck I guarantee in the reviews…the last generation, 14 years…my gosh…now they are releasing hybrid only models..never thought that would happen. New IS500 is just another way to make money off their old engines,..but they got the softness compared to the F model is what people want now. I really railed on hybrid in the past..but they were right.

can you believe the LS500 scored a 46 in CR? that sucks

I think the RX looks sharp on the street next to other cars…at the dealer it looks weird and in pics it looks bad…it’s soft riding and is just a TALL CAR…it’s exactly what most people want…

Now for Land Cruiser, gone..truly brilliant..now people won’t see the difference between a US made model over the Japan models that were just a level above, This Tundra will do better.

You have to have some green cannabis beverages (legal here) for Mirai talk..they will just coexist for a long time..they will complete each other with a battery EV, fuel cells at the cheaper end, battery for the high end …Camry fuel cell would be the beak point between the two…fuel cell will be cheaper to make..cuz they will make gas hybrids off the same parts and chassis…the new Mirai is RX EV motor, LS battery, plus LS chassis which is just TNGA,.so economies of scale…it will be that way because all EVs are 20 - 30 from now…Toyota is right.

Anyways..followed Toyota a long time,…interesting brand and has treated me well…I own no stock in them,,

 

Apparently it's 8.4 years: https://www.iseecars.com/how-long-pe...eep-cars-study

It's not that they don't care at all about secondary buyers, they only care about them in one aspect. It's still important how much those buyers are willing to pay, because it determines the actual residual value on lease returns (not necessarily the residual figure in the lease contract). If a brand's reputation is tarnished badly enough by unreliability, that increases the subsidy that the manufacturer has to put on their leases to remain competitive. But we're talking second- and third-order effects here, so it's far from a 1:1 correlation.

 

Considering their extremely affordable lease rates despite their catastrophic depreciation, I'd love to know how much BMW pumps their subsidies to inflate their residuals. Supposedly their CPO program is also quite profitable.

 

The reality of this also is the "catastrophic depreciation" is not as "catastrophic" as its made out to be.

 

It's pretty bad, unfortunately. There's some massive subsidies going into those residuals.

Top 10 Cars That Hold Their Value Best

 

I can tell you from experience that Lexus is not much better. My 2015 LS460 had an MSRP of $80,000, I traded it 2.5 years later for $32,000. Thats 60% depreciation after only 2.5 years, and this chart is showing the 7 Series as the worst at 72.6% after 5 years.

And as a consumer...all I can tell you is the lease payments on a $120,000 750i are exactly the same as on a $90,000 LS. Same payment, BMW is $30k more...and all the maintenance is included on the BMW. Why would you lease the Lexus?

 

Anecdotes aside, trade-in value will always be substantially lower than sales value, which is what the iSeeCars study uses. I'm not even sure how many BMW's would be brought in for trade-in's since the majority of them are leased.

Exactly my point. BMW pumps in so much into their residuals that their leases are next to impossible to beat.