Toys4RJill

.... Car & Driver actually did a blind test, they ended up preferring the electric steering over the hydraulic system (the same mag that cried to BMW who told them their customers prefer less feel) I think you have missed what myself and others are saying.....it was good discussion, but it’s time to move on.

Your condescending comment and sensitive remark were out of line. But you and I are friends, I will forgive you.

mmarshall

I was actually trying not to be condescending, as you have complained a few times, in the past, about several different people doing that. With all due respect, I guess you didn't understand my intention. But, fine, I agree....let's move on.

What do you think of the Tesla 3, since it managed to actually win the comparison? Have you driven one? Like I said in my post, I find the dash and instrumentation (by my standards) a joke, but, since I haven't (yet) driven one, I'll have to take the word of the reviewers that the drivetrain is a silky magic-carpet combination of power and smoothness. I'm disturbed, though, about numerous reports of poor quality control.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Can you elaborate why you believe the G70 is better than the 3 series, based on what merit? I personally found this article laughable. The 3 series is clearly the better car, easily the best in its class right now. Sure, its more expensive, but well worth the price premium.

mmarshall

IMO better-built inside and out, better interior/exterior trim and hardware materials, more tightly-screwed-together, more precise fit of parts, better fit/finish, much longer warranty (which shows the confidence of the manufacturer in the quality of the design), easier-to-use controls, better potential reliability, less-expensive service/repairs if not under warranty (that's the the Germans really get you), and less-arrogant dealerships. BMW shops, overall, are far better than they used to be (they have competition now), but, still, sometimes have snooty or arrogant reps left over from the Ultimate-Driving-Machine days, when they could afford to treat potential customers like that.

The 3-series, of course, does have the (still-attractive) panache of the blue and white BMW logo on the the hood, a long history of buyers and repeat-buyers, a long history of sport-sedan-comparison wins before the conversion to the new steering/suspension (many people still buy new 3-series based on what they once were), low depreciation, good lease-values, and the image that refuses to fade despite the new reality.

Sulu

Electronic assist of automotive systems and accessories saves fuel and simplifies things under the hood, especially with the growth of electrification and autonomous driving features.

Hydraulic assist requires a constantly-operating pump to keep the hydraulic oil moving (and the oil may leak). The pump is turned by the engine, which places a constant drag on the engine (which consumes more fuel), and would stop working when the engine is not running (not good for idle-stop systems or hybrids of full EVs). Electric motors, on the other hand, only draw electrical power when running (saving fuel) and can run off a battery, so they can still run even if the engine is off.

With everything being electronically controlled, it is also much easier to cross-link systems. Electronic stability control is a good example of this.

ESC started as traction control using just the ABS system -- brake individual wheels to divert power to wheel(s) that have traction. Adding control of the throttle to the traction control system was a good idea (kill power to the spinning wheels) but difficult to implement with the old cable throttle because a separate control had to be added that could bypass the cable throttle (but only bypass it when needed), despite the fact that the driver's foot was still on the throttle.

When the throttle became electronically controlled, however, it became an electric motor controlled by a computer that ran on an electrical signal from the throttle pedal. Then, running another electrical signal from the traction control system was easy. And as we add autonomous driving systems to cars, another electrical signal, from a road sign-reading camera or from the navigation system that knows there is a change in speed limit, is an easy addition.

LexBob2

Arrogant dealerships? Snooty/arrogant reps? I've purchased 3 BMW's now and in each case the dealerships and reps have been relaxed and laid back. I haven't seen these traits that you speak of.

mmarshall

Correct.....not much any more, as I stated. But, if I may be blunt, I can remember when a number (not all) of BMW sales-reps and sales managers thought their **** didn't stink. Ditto, in some cases, for Porsche and Mercedes dealerships.,..although they, too, are much better today.

LexBob2

I guess we've had different experiences.

mmarshall

Well, no, not really. Though I've never really purchased or leased a new BMW myself, I agree with you, in shopping for BMW with other people, and in sampling/reviewing their products myself, that the Snoot-O-Matic people are now mostly gone. But I did run into a number of them in past days.

And I also got a pleasant surprise with one of them....turned out to be a guy I had gone to high-school with, roughly half a century ago. We sat in a number of the same classrooms together...just one row apart (alphabetically). He had sold Toyotas and Hondas, and was now with BMW/Mini. In addition to talking cars, we had fun talking over old times.

Och

iTrader: (3)

If you buy a piece of crap, you get a piece of crap, but if you buy a piece of crap with a 10 year warranty you get a guaranteed piece of crap.

Long warranty is a common trick used by discount brands like Huyndai and Mitsubishi, and Chrysler once even offered "lifetime warranty". In reality the 10 year warranty only covers the driver train, and it's not even transferable - once you sell it the second owner only gets 5/60k warranty.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Ok we can do without the scatalogical analogies please. And while you may be able to remember it, in your experience, you concede it’s ‘not much’ the case any more, but regardless, your sweeping statement is a blanket stereotype when all dealers vary and the salespeople within a dealership vary.

mmarshall

It's no longer a stereotype.....I made that abundantly clear. But, fine....at your request, I'll move on.

Toys4RJill

This is exactly the case. I would not be against a longer warranty, but I would question any product if a company was touting a longer than normal warranty coverage.

mmarshall

So what would you consider "normal" warranty coverage? Most mainstream American and Japanese brands have 5/60 and 3/36. 6/70 and 4/50 is the standard for upmarket American and Japanese brands. VW (now) has 6/70 (a good deal), but the upmarket German brands are all 4/50. Only the Koreans (and Mitsubishi), in the American market, are willing to go out on a limb with 10/100 and 5/60. In my book, that means confidence in their products.

Toys4RJill

If a brand is strong, they would not have to go out on a limb. So I see it a little different. All available evidence shows that the Korean brand cars become problematic after the 4-5 year period. My brother has an Elantra hatch and had his engine replaced just before the bumper to bumper warranty ended