bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

respectfully, i don’t think that’s the right question as consumers couldn’t care less what ‘platform’ a car is made from... to me the point is whether toyota/lexus is providing the vehicles that consumers want and responding in a timely fashion. The TNGA platform though is supposed to give toyota the flexibility and cost savings to be more agile and offer better pricing (or make more profit, or both).

Toyota/lexus clearly continues to sell a TON of vehicles, so there’s no major problem although this month for example it seems like their sales went down while the majority of others went up, or maybe i’m misinterpreting and that seems to have happens in other months recently, but obviously not every month.

Like most on CL, i appreciate toyota/lexus’ excellent design AND manufacturing skills, but most here agree that while they lead in some segments, they rely on old vehicles in a number of other segments. They do quietly make some nice updates even to old models, in particular with the latest safety features.

It seems to me though that Toyota/lexus goes for the ‘middle’ say 80% of bell curve customs, a huge swath indeed, caring not about those most price or feature sensitive buyers at either end, and instead, micromanaging expectations, costs, and features on that middle 80%, providing the minimum possible number of model/option combinations to optimize manufacturing and eliminating features on trim levels they don’t think (or know, through research) the 80% will notice if they’re missing.

that works in a ‘mass market’ way, i mean apple produces just a few phones and doesn’t care if it doesn’t get consumers looking for a ‘cheap’ phone or features it doesn’t deem worthy in certain models. But obviously there are other more discerning consumers who either don’t like the ‘take it or leave it’ offering, or just want something ‘different’ from the 80% herd. That’s one reason i don’t have an iphone for example lol.

I will still never forget reading about and then buying my 2000 lexus GS400 because it seemed like toyota/lexus just swung for the fences and put everything and the kitchen sink in that model... state of the art nav (or Mark Levinson stereo, unfortunately you couldn’t get both), HIDs, great room, smokin’ V8 for its time, silky smooth... my neighbor with his bmw 540i couldn’t believe it when i took him for a spin.

i learned a lot about the supra mk iv back then from enthusiasts and just how much toyota again swung for the fences, that car is LEGENDARY.

Fast forward to now... GS seems on its last days and the new Supra is made by BMW. Tesla is disrupting the market but Toyota doesn’t have a single EV (after briefly flirting with the market with a rav4 ev i believe) - instead we have complex but quirky hybrid powertrains in corollas and the lexus ls500h and the seriously quirky prius. The ls500h is clearly not going to sell, the corolla hybrid will probably outsell the prius but the ‘thing’ is EVs... where’s toyota? Oh right, offering the hydrogen mirai only in california.

We all want toyota to swing for the fences again! Stop being so conservative and calculating. It’s exactly what GM did for years, only with MUCH worse quality of course, treating its customers with contempt and pushing crap on them with ‘good deals’.

Maybe we’re just (as usual ) being impatient, maybe TNGA is an example of a more nimble and bold toyota/lexus that is going to emerge in the next few years. Hopefully enthusiasts and a growing chunk of others haven’t moved elsewhere.

mbarron37

Agreed. They put all effort into those vehicles you mentioned, but those happen to be more entry level vehicles. The top of the line vehicles seem to get little attention, then it is delayed. Look at the LX, GX, GS and the LS that was finally updated. The flagship should always lead the pack IMO. It’s a shame, but it seems Lexus has focused on the lower end cars and forgot about the high end ones.

I simply cant understand the LX/LC as it is ancient. IMO, Lexus would be best served making a true luxury full size SUV that rides smooth as silk. They seem slow to adapt to consumer changes (wants and needs). Lexus could easily sell 30k luxury full size SUVs in this market, but they lack the product people want. Such a shame.

Toys4RJill

You are right that consumers do not care about the platform, but I will argue that sales are what matter. And I look at sales, are they up or are they down over the models of the past? So if this supposedly great platform, is it possible the models coming out are turning off potential buyers?

I have actually been driving my fathers new TNGA Avalon for a while now, we have traded my 4Runner for him to use while they use my mothers 4Runner and mine to move things for their place.

Anyways, we are on a long trip throughout the United States and I can only give you my opinion from a long term Toyota owner, by myself and my husband. We have both been driving it. The biggest issue to me is that it feels vastly different than past Toyota’s, everything feels different and is in a new direction. For such a large car, the headroom is just abysmal, this was evident when my husband was driving and when he pulled up the US border crossing, the border agent asked him to duck his head down as the roof pillar was blocking most of his face. Apple Car Play is not polished in the new Toyota models. The trunk feels smaller than it really is. The doors open wider and feel longer and are harder to reach to close them. So, does this new Avalon feel like a premium car? It’s does. But IMO in lacks the feel and hallmarks of what Toyota used to be. I find the same critique of the new Corolla, and I watching the new LS get torn to shreds with all the forums. There still is a lot to like about the new sedans I will add.

So Toyota sales are down. Are they down on their current old models not selling? Or is it the new TNGA car models? I think sales are down since January.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i don’t know if it’s the tnga platform that made for low headroom or other things you noticed about the avalon, but clearly toyota has decided if sedans can’t compete with suvs, then make sedans more sleek and low. seems to me it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy that sedan sales will go lower still with that strategy. but i don’t look at it in terms of ‘platforms’ which are very vague things anyway, but simply whether the product is a hit with consumers, and it seems toyota’s recent releases haven’t been big hits for several reasons but i think this push to make everything ‘sportier’ doesn’t resonate with the vast majority of toyota’s traditional buyers who want safe, reliable, and practical vehicles.

Haven’t checked thoughts here aligning with facts, but despite above i believe the new rav4 is doing very well and i’m sure the new tacoma is too, although the new ford ranger must be eating into taco sales. I personally think the new highlander is an epic fail, but we’ll see in the marketplace. But the fact is a lot of toyota/lexus models are very old. I was in a parking lot today and a new LX570 pulled up in the parking sport across from me. First it was white which i find the least flattering color of cars, but i know some love white. Anyway, i kinda winced at how ugly that front is and then had to laugh because the grill and squinty LED headlights above it just looks so comical, like a bad transformer. i realize it still has impeccable off road cred but then i just saw a report by a guy who did a ride along in the new mercedes gls where it was driven through deep sand dunes showing it’s off road prowess. So between the luxury of the new gls and its off-road capabilities, i think the lx just looks like an antique with a bad face lift.

Come on toyota! Use some of that fortune you have piled up.

nicedude

See the LS 500h review thread.

On topic, April's best seller in the segment was the Panamera.

Panamera - 992
S-Class - 958
Model S - 825
7 Series - 567
LS - 474
A8 - 261
G90 - 129

Looking like tank mode for the whole segment. How pathetic right? *shrugs*

mbarron37

Yes, looks bad for all. Still, with the LS just receiving a major update, I would of thought sales would be higher, at least for the first 1-2 years. What will LS sales look like in a year or two? Maybe it’s the market for luxury sedans, but the LS should be doing fairly well right now and it is not. The original target was 12k sales per year, we are about half that, at least recently.

Toys4RJill

I think it is fair to wait till all of the cars and SUVs and trucks are redesigned before we can form a final opinion. But if sales are down each month, then there is definitely wrong. And if the sedans are declining at a higher lever than competitors, then some consideration has to be made about the direction that Toyota is going. I do not like the exterior of the HL, dash is ok. But looking at the photos, appears like it has gotten smaller on the inside

situman

How do you compare sales of platforms between different generations, from different time periods, market conditions, different consumer tastes, different demographic, millenials vs baby boomers and many other variables? It boggles my mind that question even gets asked. Clearly the coupe like design and headroom was by choice, regardless of platform. What idiot designs a modular platform that can ONLY produce vehicles with low headroom and space? Weird.

nicedude

I hope you are not one of those die hard 1-4LS fans because it is not 1989, 2000, or 2007 anymore. When the least traditional sized luxury sedan is the best seller in the Panamera (not even a real sedan considering it has a hatch trunk and only sits four at that), sales expectations must be adjusted for the LS and everyone else in the segment.

mbarron37

I’m a fan of luxury and refinement, which the 500 is not. True that the market has changed, but the LS is at 50% of target sales. That is fact, not opinion. To me at least, the anticipation of an all new LS did not pan out. IMO, the Toyota and Lexus redesign cycles are too long in between changes and possibly leaves buyers looking elsewhere. If the all new LS can’t sell about 1k per month now, what will it look like after this vehicle has been out 3-4 years? Maybe everyone wants all electric today.

nicedude

The LS 500 is still luxurious, maybe not as refined as the previous generation with the V8, but it is more luxurious in someways (especially the interior). I do agree that driving refinement is a weak spot as Lexus made it one of the more fun driving full-size sedan (at entry engine trim compared to competitors). To me, the new LS is a value Panamera, not a value S Class anymore. Which makes me happy because I care about driving more than the luxury stuff. But yeah, most current LS owners would disagree.

Was there really anticipation for the new LS? The previous generation went on for like a decade for a reason. Sales were poor already since the first refresh. Tesla came in with the Model S around the refreshed LS and started outselling the S Class consistently too.

Most LS owners seem to be owners not leasers so I actually don't think a long life cycle is that bad. Lexus refreshes need to be real refreshes though, not some light changes. If I leased my cars, I would just go with something German anyways. Yes, yes, I am risked of going to the stealership a lot because of reliability...Buy Lexus, lease the Germans.

Electric is the future. I am waiting for Lexus to catch up (again)...

Bob04

The Panamera is not the "best seller". YTD the S-Class is easily outselling it 4109 to 2690. The BMW 7 Series is still #2 at 2860. The LS is at a tragic 1878. And both the S and 7 have been out for several years yet still blowing away the almost new LS. Even the CT6 is beating the LS in sales, with 2188 YTD excluding April sales. Yep. The CT6 outsold the LS by over 300 units YTD even though LS sales included April and CT6 sales did not. The LS did manage to edge out the Lincoln Continential's 1734 units sold by 144 cars.

So, it has nothing to do with "die hard 1-4LS fans because it is not 1989, 2000, or 2007 anymore" and everything to do with Lexus turning the LS into a car that alienated it's traditional buyers yet doesn't really appeal to new customers either. Their marketing department is questionable. NX sales were double what they expected while LS has have been far less than expected. Somebody isn't doing their homework and surely doesn't understand the market either way.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

^^^ great post.

Bob04

May LS500 sales are out soon. What is your over/under? I'm going with 471.5

Toys4RJill

Meow. That was mean.

But funny.

I say under.