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Old 02-09-19, 08:32 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
I think, Sequoia and Land Cruiser along LX will all be merged off of one platform. It makes no sense to have two different full size platforms in a shrinking market place. I think the Seqouia will be a trim level below Land Cruiser. Kinda like Yukon, then Yukon Denali.
If that happens, I'll buy you one.

It makes total sense when you understand the role the Land Cruiser plays elsewhere in the world. The Sequoia is only sold here in North America, the Land Cruiser is sold all over the world in huge numbers, and people in those markets aren't going to accept a LC that is based off of a Sequoia style platform as that platform doesn't fit their needs. The LC is not designed for America, the Sequoia is. The market is not such that they would impose a vehicle designed for America on everyone else all over the world, they would be making the LC for its smallest market and imposing it on its largest market. The LC doesn't appeal to the same sort of American buyer who buys the Expedition or Tahoe/Suburban. Thats what the Sequoia does, its just ancient compared to them.

And the marketplace is not shrinking. Large SUV sales are growing not shrinking.

Now, you could find that the next gen LX is based off of the next gen Sequoia vs the LC, that would make sense so that it would better compete with the Navigator and Escalade.

They may D/C the LC in the US, but I doubt it because like I said, it does have a cult following and it costs them nothing to sell it here.
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Old 02-09-19, 08:40 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
If that happens, I'll buy you one.

It makes total sense when you understand the role the Land Cruiser plays elsewhere in the world. The Sequoia is only sold here in North America, the Land Cruiser is sold all over the world in huge numbers, and people in those markets aren't going to accept a LC that is based off of a Sequoia style platform as that platform doesn't fit their needs. The LC is not designed for America, the Sequoia is. The market is not such that they would impose a vehicle designed for America on everyone else all over the world, they would be making the LC for its smallest market and imposing it on its largest market. The LC doesn't appeal to the same sort of American buyer who buys the Expedition or Tahoe/Suburban. Thats what the Sequoia does, its just ancient compared to them.

And the marketplace is not shrinking. Large SUV sales are growing not shrinking.

Now, you could find that the next gen LX is based off of the next gen Sequoia vs the LC, that would make sense so that it would better compete with the Navigator and Escalade.

They may D/C the LC in the US, but I doubt it because like I said, it does have a cult following and it costs them nothing to sell it here.
Nissan consolidated their two separate body on platform models into just one standard model. The Patrol/QX/Armada are now one platform whereas there was a specific world platform and a specific USA platform. Toyota has been cutting losts of costs and streamlining things more than they ever have in the past, I can totally see it happening. Overall sales in the US are shrinking, not growing. There is almost no business case whatsoever for Toyota to redesign the LC and Sequoia into two separate platforms.
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Old 02-09-19, 08:46 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
Nissan consolidated their two separate body on platform models into just one standard model. The Patrol/QX/Armada are now one platform whereas there was a specific world platform and a specific USA platform. Toyota has been cutting losts of costs and streamlining things more than they ever have in the past, I can totally see it happening.
But the QX/Armada IS the Patrol. They are niche vehicles that are more similar to the LC than the American trucks that the Sequoia competes with. Nissan essentially doesn't compete in that segment.

Thats the point, the Armada/Patrol sells way better elsewhere in the world, they're not going to make a vehicle that competes with US style large BOF SUVs and expect that vehicle to compete in their other world markets where the Patrol is very popular.

The only way what you are suggesting happens is if Toyota drops the Sequoia and decides they just won't compete in that segment. Any vehicle that would be successful where the LC is successful elsewhere in the world would not compete in the US large SUV segment, and vice versa. If they want to compete in both segments they have to have two vehicles.
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Old 02-09-19, 09:11 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
But the QX/Armada IS the Patrol. They are niche vehicles that are more similar to the LC than the American trucks that the Sequoia competes with. Nissan essentially doesn't compete in that segment.

Thats the point, the Armada/Patrol sells way better elsewhere in the world, they're not going to make a vehicle that competes with US style large BOF SUVs and expect that vehicle to compete in their other world markets where the Patrol is very popular.

The only way what you are suggesting happens is if Toyota drops the Sequoia and decides they just won't compete in that segment. Any vehicle that would be successful where the LC is successful elsewhere in the world would not compete in the US large SUV segment, and vice versa. If they want to compete in both segments they have to have two vehicles.
My thoughts are this. There will be one global platform, the size of the Land Cruiser\LX will grow while the Sequoia be the same platform but wiill be the XL version. All there interiors might be different.
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Old 02-09-19, 09:18 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
My thoughts are this. There will be one global platform, the size of the Land Cruiser\LX will grow while the Sequoia be the same platform but wiill be the XL version. All there interiors might be different.
There being a global platform, and saying the two vehicles will be the same vehicle just in two sizes like the Tahoe and the Suburban aren't the same thing.

I would agree there's a strong possibility they will both be on a global platform, but they will not be two lengths of the same vehicle, and I would be shocked if the LC grew. In the markets that make up 95% of LC sales, they don't want a bigger vehicle, the only market that wants a bigger vehicle is the US, and the US is just going to get the LC as designed for elsewhere in the world since its such a small % of the LC's market.

No chance the Sequoia is just a longer version of the LC for the reasons I've said.

Remember, technically the current Camry and the LS500 are on the same "global platform" but that doesn't mean the LS is a longer version of the Camry. These new platforms are highly customizable.

Bottom line is the Sequoia is a vehicle designed for the US, and the LC is a vehicle designed for other markets like the Middle East, Africa, etc. They're just never going to be the same vehicle because the needs of those two markets are so different.
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Old 02-09-19, 09:25 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
There being a global platform, and saying the two vehicles will be the same vehicle just in two sizes like the Tahoe and the Suburban aren't the same thing.

I would agree there's a strong possibility they will both be on a global platform, but they will not be two lengths of the same vehicle, and I would be shocked if the LC grew. In the markets that make up 95% of LC sales, they don't want a bigger vehicle, the only market that wants a bigger vehicle is the US, and the US is just going to get the LC as designed for elsewhere in the world since its such a small % of the LC's market.

No chance the Sequoia is just a longer version of the LC for the reasons I've said.

Remember, technically the current Camry and the LS500 are on the same "global platform" but that doesn't mean the LS is a longer version of the Camry. These new platforms are highly customizable.

Bottom line is the Sequoia is a vehicle designed for the US, and the LC is a vehicle designed for other markets like the Middle East, Africa, etc. They're just never going to be the same vehicle because the needs of those two markets are so different.
The Patrol was the same size forever. Then it finally grew. Went IRS as well. The US had it's own Amanda, then it was not redeveloped and they just used the world platform in the US and called it the Armada . The Yukon is the same platform as the Yukon XL, one is just a little longer. Land Cruiser (Tahoe), Sequoia (Escalada XL), and LX (Escalade XL) but its own interior.
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Old 02-09-19, 09:31 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
The Patrol was the same size forever. Then it finally grew. Went IRS as well. The US had it's own Amanda, then it was not redeveloped and they just used the world platform in the US. The Yukon is the same platform as the Yukon XL, one is just a little longer. Land Cruiser (Tahoe), Sequoia (Escalada XL), and LX (Escalade XL) but its own interior.
I understand all of this. The question you need to ask yourself is why did Nissan just use the world version of the Patrol as the Armada in the US? They did so because they chose not to compete with US style BOF SUVs, and economically it only made sense to use the world vehicle because it is a niche vehicle here and the world vehicle was so profitable anything coming out of here was just gravy. Its the same situation for Toyota and the LC.

Remember, the platform the old Armada was on still exists under the Titan.

The Yukon is not just the "same platform" as the Yukon XL, they are exactly the same vehicle one is just longer. The right vehicles to describe as being on the "same platform" are the GM pickups and the GM large SUVs, or the F150 and the Expedition.
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Old 02-09-19, 09:51 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
I understand all of this. The question you need to ask yourself is why did Nissan just use the world version of the Patrol as the Armada in the US? They did so because they chose not to compete with US style BOF SUVs, and economically it only made sense to use the world vehicle because it is a niche vehicle here and the world vehicle was so profitable anything coming out of here was just gravy. Its the same situation for Toyota and the LC.

Remember, the platform the old Armada was on still exists under the Titan.

The Yukon is not just the "same platform" as the Yukon XL, they are exactly the same vehicle one is just longer. The right vehicles to describe as being on the "same platform" are the GM pickups and the GM large SUVs, or the F150 and the Expedition.
I am really not sure what you are trying to prove. The Nissan/Infiniti twins outsell the LC/LX/Sequoia about 4 to 1. Toyota will never elevate their domestic Sequoia sales to anything worth having a separate development cost. One platform, a few different sizes, keep the Sequoia name for the US on lower trim specs.
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Old 02-10-19, 04:16 AM
  #39  
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I still donít see the need for a LC here in the US. The numbers are so small, they are almost irrelevant. Yes, the LC fan base is extremely hardcore and loyal, but the numbers are insignificant. I would redesign the Sequoia to something more modern.

Thr LC has its advantages:
- built to last 25 years or something like that
- excellent off road capability
​​​​​​- its the flagship SUV of Toyota
- holds it value exceptionally well

Sequoia advantages:
- better family hailer
- 3rd row is actually useable and folds flat
- more cargo capacity
​​​​​​- less expensive by a decent amount
- still great Toyota quality, although not LC level

I donít know anyone personally that cares about a 25 year life for a vehicle, but there are a handful around. Most, if not all people I know are in a new vehicle every 3 to 5 years. Nobody I personally know goes off-roading. The target market for a LC type SUV here in the US is extremely small. Best bet for sales would be to redesign the Sequoia to something more desirable. Itís not bad, heck I even test drove one last year. Unfortunately it is a dinosaur and I didnít feel like it was something I wanted for the next few years.

To each their own. Toyota can keep both the LC and Sequoia, but hopefully they do something with the Sequoia, as they are missing out by not bringing that SUV up to date and modern. I would not waste resources redesigning the LC. Maybe in other parts of the world the LC gets more attention and definitely sales, but here in the US that SUV does not serve much of a purpose to the majority of consumers. Just my $.02, if itís even worth that 😀
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Old 02-10-19, 06:37 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
I am really not sure what you are trying to prove. The Nissan/Infiniti twins outsell the LC/LX/Sequoia about 4 to 1. Toyota will never elevate their domestic Sequoia sales to anything worth having a separate development cost. One platform, a few different sizes, keep the Sequoia name for the US on lower trim specs.
I don't agree. I think there absolutely is a market for a large Toyota BOF SUV that would compete with the Expedition and Yukon/Suburban. What holds the Sequoia back is its so ancient. I think theres way more market for that here than for a vehicle like the Land Cruiser.

The issue with the Sequoia is the only market is North America, thats where Jill is right. They have to be able to recoup the development costs out of the Sequoia just off our market, they don't have a huge world market for it.

Seeing that the Sequoia has not been a sales success in so long, if they aren't going to build a vehicle that really will compete with those vehicles I don't see why they need to keep the Sequoia name around. They'll always sell the LC here because it doesn't cost them anything to do that.

Originally Posted by mbarron
I still don’t see the need for a LC here in the US. The numbers are so small, they are almost irrelevant. Yes, the LC fan base is extremely hardcore and loyal, but the numbers are insignificant.
There really isn't a need. Like I said, they sell them here because they make so much money on the LC elsewhere in the world they may as well sell it here because there is some small demand, and its a halo vehicle for Toyota in the US.
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Old 02-10-19, 07:10 AM
  #41  
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This is something that really aggravates me about Toyota/Lexus, the snail pace they are on with their large body on frame vehicles.
While Toyota continues to refresh these dinosaurs, it's not the same as full redesigns to properly compete with the American brands.
The current generations are two typical generations old. This is no way to operate when you're the richest automaker in the world. What's worse is that there's no word on any of these being all new soon. Nothing before 2021???

Tundra/Sequoia - 2007-
Land Cruiser/LX - 2008-
4Runner/GX - 2009/10-

Think back at the car you were driving in 2007 compared to what's out now.
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Old 02-10-19, 10:05 AM
  #42  
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I tend to agree with Jill on this one. The full-size BOF Ford and GM SUVs are a lot like the cult-popularity of the F-150/Silverado in that they are bought (and repeat-bought) by an extremely loyal and widespread owner-base. The potential for non-domestic makes to significantly break into this market is not good. The Nissan Titan, for example, has gone almost nowhere against domestic full-size pickups, and the Toyota Tundra, while somewhat more successful than the Titan, still is nowhere even near the same popularity s F-150s and Silverado's. That is also the case for the Sequoia. Toyota could design an all-new Sequoia and release it tomorrow, and it probably wouldn't score a whole lot of success against Expeditions, Suburbans, Yukons, etc.....
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Old 02-10-19, 11:50 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
I tend to agree with Jill on this one. The full-size BOF Ford and GM SUVs are a lot like the cult-popularity of the F-150/Silverado in that they are bought (and repeat-bought) by an extremely loyal and widespread owner-base. The potential for non-domestic makes to significantly break into this market is not good. The Nissan Titan, for example, has gone almost nowhere against domestic full-size pickups, and the Toyota Tundra, while somewhat more successful than the Titan, still is nowhere even near the same popularity s F-150s and Silverado's. That is also the case for the Sequoia. Toyota could design an all-new Sequoia and release it tomorrow, and it probably wouldn't score a whole lot of success against Expeditions, Suburbans, Yukons, etc.....
The markup for pickup trucks and for full sized American SUVs is different. You donít have the zealotry and passion for full sized SUVs that you have for pickup trucks. The history and the Americana arenít there either.

Remember, the Expedition didnít exist until 1997.
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Old 02-10-19, 12:38 PM
  #44  
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Correct me if Im wrong here, but The Tundra Frame is shared with the sequoia, which then led to the LC200 frame. The platform sharing already exists. The differentiation exists in where it was designed and built, interior, and I assume performance targets.

I assume based on the rollout schedule people have posted online, this will be business as usual with the intro of the next generation.

In regards to the patrol/QX/Armada/Frontier/Titan They all share the same platform, modified to accommodate different budgets, interiors, and exteriors. Its weird but BOF platforms are super modular in design. The platform (F-Alpha) can take a solid rear or independent rear.

I also assume that based on what the market is headed towards the Toyota Lineup will encompass all budgets in the $23K-90K market range. The refreshed LC will go up higher pushing the LX up into the 100K mark, while the next gen sequ will price out at the current LC prices (Seq fully loaded). The 4Runner will shift up as well.

The Tundra will have to adjust based on the current market trends. Tundra will be competing at launch with the F150 redesign....smh.
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Old 02-10-19, 12:51 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by coolsaber View Post
Correct me if Im wrong here, but The Tundra Frame is shared with the sequoia, which then led to the LC200 frame. The platform sharing already exists. The differentiation exists in where it was designed and built, interior, and I assume performance targets.
Its not as simple as to say "the same frame is used" the platforms are derived from each other, but they are quite different. My issue with what Jill suggested was her idea that the Sequoia and Land Cruiser would be the same vehicle just in two lengths, like the Tahoe and the Suburban and that will never happen because the two vehicles are designed for such different segments.
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