Car Chat General discussion about Lexus, other auto manufacturers and automotive news.

FWD vs RWD & modern technology in the snow...

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 01-14-19, 05:46 PM
  #16  
LeX2K
Lexus Fanatic
 
LeX2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Alberta
Posts: 20,570
Received 3,038 Likes on 2,552 Posts
Default

More weight in theory yields more traction but SUVs are fitted with relatively wide rubber offsetting the weight. In slippery conditions weight per rubber contact patch is everything.
LeX2K is offline  
Old 01-14-19, 05:55 PM
  #17  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,426
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by SW17LS
Uh, no. You still have to stop, and turn. AWD systems don't do you any good there, and FWD systems make that more difficult if anything. Winter tires have rubber compounds designed to grip better in low temperatures, and tread patterns that are equipped to keep snow from building up in their tread blocks. If I lived somewhere that we got more winter (such as NY) I would absolutely run winter tires.
I agree that winter tires would make more sense in upstate NY, which, except maybe for the Sierra Nevadas in California, is arguably the Snow Capital of the U.S. I was referring, though, to this D.C. area when I made the remark about them usually being unnecessary.

Also agreed that, all else equal, AWD helps only start-up traction, not braking or handling. I was not implying anything any different, and have not done so in past posts, either.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 01-14-19, 05:55 PM
  #18  
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
SW17LS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 57,631
Received 2,753 Likes on 1,968 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MattyG
The LS does get quite a bit of praise for its winter driving abilities, especially with winter tires. I recall my 2GS430 would get stuck at the slightest mention of a rumor about winter. Once it got going it was better but it was a RWD nightmare in deep or slushy snow at the freezing point.
My LS430 was the same way.

That said, AWD>FWD>RWD. More wheels being driven helps and putting more weight on the driving tires also mitigates the disadvantage of traditional RWD. There's a sort of "ground hugging" effect on the LS due to its sheer weight which puts a certain amount of pressure on the tires and helps them not only dig through snow but also push through mild winter conditions like these in the video. The other thing to mention is that the video also shows SW driving in the ruts in the snow that other drivers have already made.
This is my third RWD LS, the issue is not the weight, its the better traction and skid control systems. This car is heads and shoulders better than the other two. I would put RWD with good traction and skid control over FWD after this experience.

It would be more interesting to see how the car does in the deeper snow to the right of the ruts in the video. Or in much colder temperatures with much more packed and thaw/freeze/snow conditions. On sheer ice, even an AWD will have problems getting going and of course the other part of winter conditions... stopping.
I'm not crazy LOL. I wasn't about to get the car stuck in that parking lot, and that snow was as high or higher than the ground clearance of the car, and as I said before it was an incline.. Has I still had my AWD LS I would have attempted that, but not in the RWD LS or the FWD Pacifica. Both would have been high sided on that snow and stuck.

I'm not about to get out in either of these cars and drive around on snow that is 5"+ and not traveled on at all. Thats something I would only do in an AWD vehicle or preferably an SUV with better ground clearance.

I would never go without winter tires in Canada or the US deep winter snow belt.
Nor would I
SW17LS is online now  
Old 01-14-19, 06:02 PM
  #19  
LeX2K
Lexus Fanatic
 
LeX2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Alberta
Posts: 20,570
Received 3,038 Likes on 2,552 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MattyG
I would never go without winter tires in Canada or the US deep winter snow belt.
I'm curious do you think all of Canada has exactly the same weather?
LeX2K is offline  
Old 01-14-19, 06:10 PM
  #20  
RX_330
Lexus Test Driver
 
RX_330's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,388
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes on 8 Posts
Default

The more aggressive programming of Lexus traction control works much better in real slippery conditions like that (not so much in deep snow). I have found the traction control in FCA products to be damn near worthless. I had a 2011 Town & Country that couldn't get me up my cousin's uphill dirt driveway. With traction control on there was still endless wheelspin and it felt like there was very little individual braking even when there was intervention.
RX_330 is offline  
Old 01-14-19, 06:27 PM
  #21  
MattyG
Lexus Champion
 
MattyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: RightHere
Posts: 2,300
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by SW17LS
This is my third RWD LS, the issue is not the weight, its the better traction and skid control systems. This car is heads and shoulders better than the other two. I would put RWD with good traction and skid control over FWD after this experience.
In this particular scenerio and your particular situation, yes. Your experience certainly points to not letting yourself be limited by the traditional fears of RWD with all season/grand touring tires in winter. Lexus certainly appears to have improved the traction control and skid control over previous versions. But at some point the rubber meets the snow and a sophisticated FWD car and AWD can match that LS and also exceed it. These are what I would call mild winter conditions with fairly warm temps. I've not known FWD Chryco products to be good in winter without some help from winter tires.

I'm not about to get out in either of these cars and drive around on snow that is 5"+ and not traveled on at all. Thats something I would only do in an AWD vehicle or preferably an SUV with better ground clearance.
Yeah I agree. AWD wins every time due to taller tire height and ground clearance. FWD also wins due to weight on the drive wheels. Just different driving techniques with each type of vehicle.
MattyG is offline  
Old 01-14-19, 06:34 PM
  #22  
Toys4RJill
Lexus Fanatic
 
Toys4RJill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ON/NY
Posts: 31,454
Received 66 Likes on 57 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by SW17LS

When is the last time you drove a RWD car in the snow? .
Yes, I have driven my sisters car, a 3 series BMW in snow before when she visits. Yes, the new modern technology has improved RWD in the snow.
Toys4RJill is offline  
Old 01-14-19, 09:04 PM
  #23  
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
SW17LS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 57,631
Received 2,753 Likes on 1,968 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MattyG
In this particular scenerio and your particular situation, yes. Your experience certainly points to not letting yourself be limited by the traditional fears of RWD with all season/grand touring tires in winter. Lexus certainly appears to have improved the traction control and skid control over previous versions. But at some point the rubber meets the snow and a sophisticated FWD car and AWD can match that LS and also exceed it. These are what I would call mild winter conditions with fairly warm temps. I've not known FWD Chryco products to be good in winter without some help from winter tires.
I would certainly say an AWD vehicle would exceed my experience with my RWD LS, certainly my AWD LS did, as did my AWD GS. I preferred driving them in the snow to my Jeep. FWD though, I really don't see how. I didnt have any issues accelerating, including up inclines from a stop. I agree, these certainly were not extreme weather conditions, but these are pretty close to the worst conditions you will find around here when you would be out in a vehicle. Perhaps once every 4 or 5 years we might have a snow worse than this snow, which is certainly not worth basing a vehicle purchasing decision on. Temps were in the upper 20s, which again is about as cold as it ever gets, even during a storm. This car performed as well or better than any FWD vehicle I've owned, lets put it that way. Last FWD product I owned before this van was a 2010 ES350 with TRAC and VSC. We had a FWD 2015 Kia Sedona also but never drove it in the snow.

Yeah I agree. AWD wins every time due to taller tire height and ground clearance. FWD also wins due to weight on the drive wheels. Just different driving techniques with each type of vehicle.
The issue with FWD is the inability to control the direction of the vehicle and the speed of the vehicle at the same time when you loose traction. For instance, heading up that hill I discussed, when the van was grabbing for traction, I had no ability to steer it, I had to back off the throttle to get steering inputs back. When the Lexus was grabbing for traction, I retained control over the steering.

Certain things that are a problem. I have a rather steep small townhouse driveway (about the length of a car). The driveway was shoveled, but the alleyway was not cleared. I got the front wheels up on the driveway, but could not get up the driveway because the rear wheels were back in the snow. I wound up having to back the Lexus into the driveway and that worked fine, since the momentum carried the drive wheels onto the bare asphalt and they had traction. In a FWD or AWD vehicle that would not have been necessary.

So, would I go on a trip into the mountains where I know there would be heavy snow in my LS? No, but I wouldn't in the Pacifica either...and probably would not have in my AWD LS or GS because of ground clearance. I would in say my Jeeps or my Explorer. Would I be concerned driving my LS to work and back on a snowy day like the one we had yesterday like I would have been with my 400 or 430? No, which is a huge advancement IMHO.
SW17LS is online now  
Old 01-14-19, 09:45 PM
  #24  
Och
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (3)
 
Och's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 16,436
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by SW17LS
They just don't make sense here in our climate. This was the biggest snow we've had since January of 2016, and our temps are all over the place. For instance Tuesday, it was 60 degrees, and Sunday we had a foot of snow. It just doesn't make sense here to have two dedicated sets of tires.
My daughter actually lives near DC, in Reston VA. She asked me to get her a set of winter wheels for her X5.
Och is offline  
Old 01-14-19, 09:52 PM
  #25  
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
SW17LS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 57,631
Received 2,753 Likes on 1,968 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Och
My daughter actually lives near DC, in Reston VA. She asked me to get her a set of winter wheels for her X5.
Totally not worth it here IMHO. If anything temps stay higher than the best grip range of winter tires more than they’re below that during the winter.
SW17LS is online now  
Old 01-14-19, 09:55 PM
  #26  
Och
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (3)
 
Och's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 16,436
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by SW17LS


Totally not worth it here IMHO. If anything temps stay higher than the best grip range of winter tires more than they’re below that during the winter.
Thats kind of what I'm thinking. She has AWD with all seasons, I told her just to avoid driving until roads are cleared.
Och is offline  
Old 01-14-19, 10:00 PM
  #27  
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
SW17LS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 57,631
Received 2,753 Likes on 1,968 Posts
Default

That’s all she needs. I have never felt the need to have winter tires here, even in our worst winters.
SW17LS is online now  
Old 01-15-19, 03:20 PM
  #28  
Och
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (3)
 
Och's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 16,436
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

I ordered them anyway, just to be safe.
Och is offline  
Old 01-15-19, 07:24 PM
  #29  
AJT123
Lexus Champion
 
AJT123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 12,665
Received 228 Likes on 191 Posts
Default

How much does the TCS give you before it steps in on the newer LSs?

I HAATE the traction control system in my LS430, it activates if the wheel slips a millimeter, and in the snow the car just goes nowhere. If I have to pull out fast on dry pavement it will activate, it's a huge bother how intrusive it is and actually makes it semi-dangerous if I need to accelerate quickly. I feel if it gave you a little bit more before it reigns you in it would be better in the snow.
AJT123 is offline  
Old 01-15-19, 07:33 PM
  #30  
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
SW17LS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 57,631
Received 2,753 Likes on 1,968 Posts
Default

That was an issue with my older cars too, I would have to wind up turning it off to get moving. The new system does a much better job of letting there be enough slip to let you get moving...
SW17LS is online now  


Quick Reply: FWD vs RWD & modern technology in the snow...



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:23 AM.