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My coworker is picking up his Model 3 this weekend. He didn't get assigned a VIN until there was a car matching his specification on its way to him. He chose his options & colors about 2 months prior to getting notification that his car was on the way and he got a call about 2 weeks prior to delivery to confirm that he still wanted the car. If someone can't figure out they don't want the car until they are scheduled for delivery, they deserve to lose their deposit
Deposits are kind of a grey area from personal experience. From what I understand with the Model 3s were that deposit were refundable up until august, where new orders basically were locked in. While I understand that sourcing etc costs time and money, and this is an insurance policy from ghosting customers for the company, I think there should be better ways for a company to take orders then basically pick up the old, outdated dealership play book of non refundable deposits.
Tesla marketing though... Started off selling a "full self-driving" feature that was no where near completion (not to mention laws for self-driving isn't even place yet.) Many consumers have bought it and have sued for buying a feature that doesn't exist.
Now - Elon - is finally removing the feature because of the "confusion". To Elon - I say - there is no confusion. You were trying to sell something that didn't exist and was years and years away just to make money.
At least they removed the option to buy it now...
Level 2 autonomous is what autopilot currently is. However without anyone calling this nonsense out, autopilot without self driving wordage still causes a first time uneducated buyers confusion. They hear autopilot they think planes and full self driving
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
i don't know if tesla will survive or not, but they ARE a big deal.
Can't quote posts because CL broken on ios12 but...
coolsaber said the 'bigs' will crush tesla as they make cheaper more reliable vehicles or something... that's some speculation since they have no charger network, dealers are still (idiotic) dealers, no track record, competing with themselves, etc.
if you'd told me 6 months ago tesla would ship 24k cars in september i'd have said you're dreaming... but they did and are still cranking. Are they perfect? No, but for all the links and claims here that tesla the company, their vehicles, and their service suck, has anyone here actually talked to people who own them and have had them for a while? I have and they are completely head over heels in love with their vehicles... that right there is gold.
in early days they were just a gimmick... the s made people say 'hmmm...' and even in my small town i see an s about every day when i'm out and about. And now the 3, shipping in big volumes just like musk said they would, is making a real dent in the car business. There's also quite a bit of move afoot in the car biz to go around dealers for sales, because they stink at it and it's horribly inefficient, just like retail has been destroyed by amazon.
so change is happening. Tesla could still fail for sure, but i'd now say they have a better than 50% chance of making it, and i'd say a 20% chance of becoming a HUGE player.
The bigs will bring in the pain for Tesla if and when there is real competition from the big wigs. Where Porsche is now, is where Tesla was at, at the Model S launch. Zero charging network, at least the hyped up 800v network, limited knowledge of the pitfalls in this new line. But its a car company, which knows what doesnt work for an automobile design, mfg, sales, and after sales support. These might be lofty assumptions, but I assume that that experience factor they swing around is probably something Tesla doesnt have.
From what I see, they are also calculating their launch as well. As the pitfalls mentioned above, Porsche and most big wigs dont want to enter into the entry market yet. They know their production capacity is limited, their experience needs to tailor to the low volumes and upper tiers. If they can sell 3k in a quarter, which is about #s of their panemera they sold last q2, I think they have a success on their hands. Once that happens, they can move on to the next, like CUVs and entry models depending on which VAG they want to use
Short Summ:
Tesla back at Model S Launch is where the TayCan is at for Porsche
The time is takes to go from there to where Tesla is now for Porsche probably will be a lot less due to their experience
Nobody from the Bigs is going after Luxury Entry EV, so there is essentially zero competition to the Model 3
Short Summ:
Tesla back at Model S Launch is where the TayCan is at for Porsche
The time is takes to go from there to where Tesla is now for Porsche probably will be a lot less due to their experience Nobody from the Bigs is going after Luxury Entry EV, so there is essentially zero competition to the Model 3
When Tesla is ready to bring on board their Y model, Nobody from the Bigs is going after the Luxury Entry SUV EV, so there is essentially zero competition to the Model Y (over the entire performance spectrum from entry, mid, performance). Talk about leveraging the existing production line up for 80% of the body. Tesla will be ready for the sales surge as things transition from sedan to suv and keep sales healthy and profits flowing.
The Luxury Entry SUV market is already in the 35k-60k range and the market already proves there's a healthy buying market for it. The Jukes/hrv/crv/pilot/UX/NX/RX/RDX/Outback/Murano/SX5/Q3/Q5/GLX/X1/X2/X3 buyers worldwide are going to sit up and take notice.
I'm sure Tesla is chomping on the bit to get the world premiere of this product out when the right opportunity exists. It's a brilliant strategy to get the core Model 3 framework manufacturing optimized. Tesla will be ready to handle the SUV sales, smartly manage the order backlog btw sedan and suv, and there will be no competition to it. Then Tesla will be in expansion hell to fire up op's in China and Europe (whenever it happens 3-5 years after China because it can bring further optimized mfg ops to Europe). The writing is on the wall for some serious moves in 3-4 years and 7-8 years from now while everyone is stuck on some Volt variation of hybrid or generation 1 of Luxury EV (audi, merc, polestar)
Presently, despite Teslas many flaws - they are selling so well that we must take them seriously.
Only the big manufacturers with their EV's can take Tesla out.
Presently, the big players are just taking so long to bring out their EV's, this is giving Tesla a great opportunity to sell, and get into the black - to stay around as a corporation for a long time.
Only time can tell when the big players will really produce EV's, and what happens to Tesla as a result.
Originally Posted by Lexus2000
Take them out? Why does Tesla needed to be driven out of the market, or even have the thought entertained? There is room for competition in fact it's vital to the industry or any industry.
Despite Teslas many flaws, and even government tax credits - only the big players can take Tesla out.
Meaning that Teslas many flaws won't take them out; nor will the absence of tax credits.
Only the big players can take Tesla out by providing alternative competition.
The longer the big players take to move into EV's, the more Tesla will survive.
Whether Tesla continues to produce flawed products, or they rectify those flaws - that is a different question altogether.
However, the more Tesla can survive, and sell to get into the black, the greater the chances that over time, Tesla will rectify those flaws like the interior etc etc...
When Tesla is ready to bring on board their Y model, Nobody from the Bigs is going after the Luxury Entry SUV EV, so there is essentially zero competition to the Model Y (over the entire performance spectrum from entry, mid, performance). Talk about leveraging the existing production line up for 80% of the body. Tesla will be ready for the sales surge as things transition from sedan to suv and keep sales healthy and profits flowing.
This is all BEV competition is that after the Model X, but out BEFORE the Model Y
Model 3 is a luxury 4door sedan that just walked the M3 like it was nothing.
M3 is a legendary car with decades of engineering. Tesla has been around 5-10years.
This was not some fluke or stripped sedan with no A/c but a new factory stock EV car running a 1/4 mile in the 11s!
Listen would i trade my M3 for this Tesla? No
But I completely respect what Tesla is doing, sort of what Netflix did to Cable/Blockbuster.
How is this hate? You tripping, bro. If anything, I'm calling it out for what it is.
The Model 3 beat the M3 because of a instant torque from the electric motors. This doesn't mean "performance" like you claim. It literally means, faster in a straight line drag. I wanna see the Model 3 beat the M3 on a track to show true "performance".
How is it hate to claim that is shocking someone would pay 70K plus for a Model 3? That's just an opinion.
Seriously - a 70K for a Model 3 is a rip off. Have you seen that interior? At least the Model S actually looks like its worth 70K plus.
I mean - if you love Tesla so much that you would defend that the fact the Model 3 is more performance car than the M3, go buy a Tesla. But other than that, don't be calling people "haters" for not agreeing with your assessment of a car.
Only one company has potential to do significant volume. Things will get interesting in March 2019 when early reveals could come out in a manner like an Apple worldwide event and kickstart the pre-order counter. Anyone selling their Model 3 will be released back to market at a more affordable price (eg less than new).
Only one company has potential to do significant volume. Things will get interesting in March 2019 when early reveals could come out in a manner like an Apple worldwide event and kickstart the pre-order counter. Anyone selling their Model 3 will be released back to market at a more affordable price (eg less than new).
I really wonder how exactly do you think that Tesla will produce 700,000 of Model Y's starting from 2020. I mean in late 2018 they have problems with delivering 15k cars per month, apparently whole trucking industry has to be redesigned for them to do that.
I really wonder how exactly do you think that Tesla will produce 700,000 of Model Y's starting from 2020. I mean in late 2018 they have problems with delivering 15k cars per month, apparently whole trucking industry has to be redesigned for them to do that.
Supposedly they are sourcing out a new site for dedicated Model Y production. It would have learned from all the mistakes from Model 3 production and further throughput optimized.
Once you know exactly what to do, where to place things, computer networking, production line tech/robots, etc things are greatly accelerated to ramp up.
I think this is a brilliant strategy to have Model 3 as the guinea pig to scale up to serious 7-8k+ week volume and what their limitations are. If SUV sales will likely exceed sedan sales by a significant margin, they better be able to handle the demand. Getting to profitability means more lenders or debt options become available to get through this expansion regardless of current situation. The market loves growth & profit stories and will always want to be part of it's success.
Other big car OEM's are going to wrestle with EV costs and strategies from ground zero. 50k-100k units per year does not justify spending 20-30billion. It raises the serious question whether big car OEM's can take a page out of Tesla's build to order playbook to prove there is a market for their EV cars and justify the capital raise. I don't see a mass market enthusiasm happening for a Big3 (ford/gm/chrysler)/Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Lexus product. Maybe Polestar might be onto something?
In the smartphone biz, there's Apple and everyone else. In the auto ICE biz, there's everybody going after their piece of the yearly sales pie and there's enough variety to pick from to barely make everyone happy. In the Auto EV biz, there's Tesla (who already has 3 vehicles available) and everyone else. Prius/Bolt/Volt are not moving the needle.
I think the panic mode may be starting to set in now to plan out the next 4 years -- when by year 2022, Tesla could very well have over 2 million vehicles on the road by then when everyone else is limping by and trying to crack 100k/units year. It is a serious major disadvantage for ICE (internal combustion engine) manufacturers. Why should buyers trust a first generation EV product when Tesla has already proven itself over 8 years of developing it.
Lastly but I do find it satisfying that USA finally has a genuine unique car success story ready to break out for the 21st century transportation. For far too long, we had to look to the Europeans or Far East (Japan/Korea) for the most exciting car developments. Tesla is a just in the right time perfect home brew mix with Silicon Valley inspired creativity in response to reduced emissions & diesel gate emissions scandals. No way Tesla can do this type of car in the early 2000's or 1990's. The sensor & pc tech, mapping, celluar, and data networking were not ready for prime time use. Tesla integrated it all into a product and forced ICE OEM's out of their 'car' comfort zone. They went all in at a time when the iron was hot. The best ICE OEM's can do is to forage around self driving technologies and hope it offers a golden ticket entry into ICE to EV conversion? It also sounds a major warning to Lexus to rethink what they will do for the 2020 generation of cars. Apple outplayed Sony in portable music and they never recovered. What will Lexus/Toyota do now? I think we'll see some strange 'industry' partnerships that were not conceivable a few years ago (eg Honda & GM).
How is this hate? You tripping, bro. If anything, I'm calling it out for what it is.
The Model 3 beat the M3 because of a instant torque from the electric motors. This doesn't mean "performance" like you claim. It literally means, faster in a straight line drag. I wanna see the Model 3 beat the M3 on a track to show true "performance".
How is it hate to claim that is shocking someone would pay 70K plus for a Model 3? That's just an opinion.
Seriously - a 70K for a Model 3 is a rip off. Have you seen that interior? At least the Model S actually looks like its worth 70K plus.
I mean - if you love Tesla so much that you would defend that the fact the Model 3 is more performance car than the M3, go buy a Tesla. But other than that, don't be calling people "haters" for not agreeing with your assessment of a car.
99% of buyers only care about 0-60 times and bragging rights.
How many ppl will track their brand new M3 - less than 10%.
Just look at the comments in that YouTube video.
I said your a hater - because you can’t step back for a second and marvel at what this Tesla can do on a drag strip.
In US especially 1/4 mile times are the #1 bragging feature of most sports cars. Especially to generation that grew up on Fast and Furious.
Realistically most people do not track their car or have time to go to the track nor do they care about lap times. What does any of that matter unless you're a professional racer getting paid? Tesla's performance is impressive.
99% of buyers only care about 0-60 times and bragging rights.
How many ppl will track their brand new M3 - less than 10%.
Just look at the comments in that YouTube video.
I said your a hater - because you can’t step back for a second and marvel at what this Tesla can do on a drag strip.
In US especially 1/4 mile times are the #1 bragging feature of most sports cars. Especially to generation that grew up on Fast and Furious.
I never said no one cared about drag times...
I never said people track their brand new M3... Or rather, I never claim people actually track their M3.
I'm calling you out on labeling the Model 3 having "better performance" than the M3. You have to understand that "drag time" doesn't equal "performance". All I did was highlight the fact that the Model 3 is better in a straight line drag rather than the performance aspect of the M3. But that was enough for you trip out and call me a "hater".
Listen, bro. If you can't step back for a second and understand what I was saying - don't call people a hater for not agreeing with my assessment.
I grew up in the generation of "Fast and the Furious". When you are young, you cared about drag times. As you grow up, you don't anymore.
Originally Posted by Kense
Realistically most people do not track their car or have time to go to the track nor do they care about lap times. What does any of that matter unless you're a professional racer getting paid? Tesla's performance is impressive.
I was talking about the difference in terms he used.
Model 3 is faster than the M3 in a straight line - not performance. Performance, in general, the M3 is better because its a sports car.
Once we "race" an EV, we repeatedly discharge its Lion battery pack causing a rise in temperature, such that the safety cut-out kicks in to prevent Lion explosion - reducing the power by some 50% etc.
Thus, EV's do have enormous flaws, and Tesla adds even more flaws to the packaging - however EV's still have enormous benefits, with tax rebates to add - to the point where Teslas are selling like hot cakes - such that President Akio must set up & head Toyota Motor Corp's Electric Division in December 2016.
I'm sold on their flaws, but I'm also sold on their advantages.
Fact is, Tesla EV's are selling like hot cakes.
TMC is capable of producing an EV with much fewer flaws than the Germans, and considerably fewer flaws than Elon Musk.
The sooner TMC comes out with a proper 5GS EV & 4IS EV, the better for TMC, and the more likely Tesla's run comes to an end.
The longer the Germans & TMC take to produce a proper EV, the greater the chances of Tesla profitability and survival.
The biggest trick for the big players is do they make an expensive dedicated EV platform, or do they modify a MRA/OKL/MQL & GAL etc for EV use.
I would have thought that the purpose of a modular platform, is that it can be easily adapted for numerous applications.
Jaguar i-Pace here.
Benz EQC based on GLC coming late 2019.
It won't have the performance of Model 3, but it will gladly trade a much better all round package.
Too slow a release...
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0-60 and 1/4 mile times are an important measurement of a car’s performance in the US.
The Tesla Model 3 obliterates every car/suv in its price range and segment.
Track times, slalom, braking, top speed are other measures of performance - we don’t yet know how it would fair but i think it would holds its own at least for 1 lap.
The target market for an EV has about zero interest in track times it would be a massive waste of resources to engineer the car to be track ready. Not to mention the increased cost. If you want to buy a car and run it on a track there are plenty of choices.
0-60 and 1/4 mile times are an important measurement of a car’s performance in the US.
The Tesla Model 3 obliterates every car/suv in its price range and segment.
Track times, slalom, braking, top speed are other measures of performance - we don’t yet know how it would fair but i think it would holds its own at least for 1 lap.
You are saying this like I don't understand that.
But what you aren't understanding is - I'm strictly point out that the Model 3 is only better than the M3 in one sector of performance which is the drag times. You, in your previous comment, was implying that the Model 3 was better than the M3 in performance in general. Which is simply not true.
Secondly - when I address the price relative to the interior of the Model 3, I made a fair point.
For the price of a fast Model 3 (75K), the Model 3 ultimately has the worst and poorest quality interior in the price point. Not just the price point of 75K either. I would argue worst interior from 75K all the way to 30K.
10-21-18, 11:40 AM
