What Happened to Lexus?!
#31
Lexus Champion
Do you think that the long life cycle of a Lexus model is causing it to fall technically behind it's peers? The engine, the body, tires, and interiors are basics and can only be refined so much.
I think this could be it. Tech + Luxury is the new game in town, and locking in ModelYear2019 for 6-7 years is an eternity.
They dropped the ball on smartphone integration with only two 2019 models with CarPlay. Maybe they're testing it further in the Toyota lineup as proof of concept before it is 'upgraded' to luxury model series. The 7 year life cycles emphasize yearly window dressing on the base model with no changes in major design elements for a LONG time. Safety tweaks, headlight tweaks, etc. Another area of weakness is properly designing a entertainment / car navigation user interface.
I think this could be it. Tech + Luxury is the new game in town, and locking in ModelYear2019 for 6-7 years is an eternity.
They dropped the ball on smartphone integration with only two 2019 models with CarPlay. Maybe they're testing it further in the Toyota lineup as proof of concept before it is 'upgraded' to luxury model series. The 7 year life cycles emphasize yearly window dressing on the base model with no changes in major design elements for a LONG time. Safety tweaks, headlight tweaks, etc. Another area of weakness is properly designing a entertainment / car navigation user interface.
#32
Lexus Test Driver
I think the OP's rant seems to be unwarranted and seem to border the troll area. Sure - we can disagree on what we like best. Some people like V8, some like the TTV6. But the fact you called it a "rice-burner" - its called for trolling almost. The TTV6 is well received. Its more efficient and it has more power. The thing here is - we have to look at it from a world-market standpoint. The whole emissions are getting stricter and this forces companies to downsize their engines. No matter how much we don't like it - its happening. Not sure why we are blaming Lexus for changing to Turbos while BMW gets a free pass.
Secondly - fit and finish is horrible in the Lexus, you say? That's simply not true. The Lexus fit and finish has been amazing - like its always been. Step into a Mercedes Benz (any Mercedes Benz that isn't an AMG) and start pushing the materials. They all rattle, bend or don't feel solid. Then do the same for Lexus. The Lexus build quality is top notch.
I feel like your "I'm not trying to troll" is actually becoming a troll because everything you said its more of a rant against Lexus. A rant against them because you don't like what's happening to the car company. Here's the best part - if you don't like it, buy something else. We live in a wonderful with competition. Buy a car that fits your needs. Besides - Lexus sales has been up so they don't seem to really care what majority of us (car-heads or car enthusiasts) think anyways. They sell to the mass market like every company.
Dropped the ball with smartphone integration? I'm sorry I don't understand. How? And why?
I personally feel Apple Car Play would be a "nice" feature but its not a life or death feature. Majority of Audi/Porsche owners don't even use it. Same goes for BMW drivers. Essentially - what I'm saying is - if your car has free live traffic and a good infotainment system, Apple Car Play is useless. Unless Waze Maps is a huge deal to you.
Note: I love how everyone faults Lexus for Apple Car Play but not BMW. Why no one faults BMW for not offering it as standard? Hell BMW is about to only offer Apple Car Play as a subscription based service on their APP.
Last thing - you mention "properly" designed infotainment system. While I agree there are some cars that have bad ones, I don't frankly don't think the Lexus system is that bad. I think the knock on the Lexus infotainment system is overrated and baseless at times. I have yet to see someone knock the W205 C Class system? The C300 system was harder to learn and more confusing than the Lexus. But at the end of the day - I learned it and used it on the go.
The problem here is majority people that are complaining about the infotainment systems don't keep for a long time or they don't want to learn it. They expect it to be so easy - they get it a minute.
Secondly - fit and finish is horrible in the Lexus, you say? That's simply not true. The Lexus fit and finish has been amazing - like its always been. Step into a Mercedes Benz (any Mercedes Benz that isn't an AMG) and start pushing the materials. They all rattle, bend or don't feel solid. Then do the same for Lexus. The Lexus build quality is top notch.
I feel like your "I'm not trying to troll" is actually becoming a troll because everything you said its more of a rant against Lexus. A rant against them because you don't like what's happening to the car company. Here's the best part - if you don't like it, buy something else. We live in a wonderful with competition. Buy a car that fits your needs. Besides - Lexus sales has been up so they don't seem to really care what majority of us (car-heads or car enthusiasts) think anyways. They sell to the mass market like every company.
They dropped the ball on smartphone integration with only two 2019 models with CarPlay. Maybe they're testing it further in the Toyota lineup as proof of concept before it is 'upgraded' to luxury model series. The 7 year life cycles emphasize yearly window dressing on the base model with no changes in major design elements for a LONG time. Safety tweaks, headlight tweaks, etc. Another area of weakness is properly designing a entertainment / car navigation user interface.
I personally feel Apple Car Play would be a "nice" feature but its not a life or death feature. Majority of Audi/Porsche owners don't even use it. Same goes for BMW drivers. Essentially - what I'm saying is - if your car has free live traffic and a good infotainment system, Apple Car Play is useless. Unless Waze Maps is a huge deal to you.
Note: I love how everyone faults Lexus for Apple Car Play but not BMW. Why no one faults BMW for not offering it as standard? Hell BMW is about to only offer Apple Car Play as a subscription based service on their APP.
Last thing - you mention "properly" designed infotainment system. While I agree there are some cars that have bad ones, I don't frankly don't think the Lexus system is that bad. I think the knock on the Lexus infotainment system is overrated and baseless at times. I have yet to see someone knock the W205 C Class system? The C300 system was harder to learn and more confusing than the Lexus. But at the end of the day - I learned it and used it on the go.
The problem here is majority people that are complaining about the infotainment systems don't keep for a long time or they don't want to learn it. They expect it to be so easy - they get it a minute.
#33
Lexus Fanatic
I think the OP's rant seems to be unwarranted and seem to border the troll area. Sure - we can disagree on what we like best. Some people like V8, some like the TTV6. But the fact you called it a "rice-burner" - its called for trolling almost. The TTV6 is well received. Its more efficient and it has more power. The thing here is - we have to look at it from a world-market standpoint. The whole emissions are getting stricter and this forces companies to downsize their engines. No matter how much we don't like it - its happening. Not sure why we are blaming Lexus for changing to Turbos while BMW gets a free pass.
Secondly - fit and finish is horrible in the Lexus, you say? That's simply not true. The Lexus fit and finish has been amazing - like its always been. Step into a Mercedes Benz (any Mercedes Benz that isn't an AMG) and start pushing the materials. They all rattle, bend or don't feel solid. Then do the same for Lexus. The Lexus build quality is top notch.
I feel like your "I'm not trying to troll" is actually becoming a troll because everything you said its more of a rant against Lexus. A rant against them because you don't like what's happening to the car company. Here's the best part - if you don't like it, buy something else. We live in a wonderful with competition. Buy a car that fits your needs. Besides - Lexus sales has been up so they don't seem to really care what majority of us (car-heads or car enthusiasts) think anyways. They sell to the mass market like every company.
Dropped the ball with smartphone integration? I'm sorry I don't understand. How? And why?
I personally feel Apple Car Play would be a "nice" feature but its not a life or death feature. Majority of Audi/Porsche owners don't even use it. Same goes for BMW drivers. Essentially - what I'm saying is - if your car has free live traffic and a good infotainment system, Apple Car Play is useless. Unless Waze Maps is a huge deal to you.
Note: I love how everyone faults Lexus for Apple Car Play but not BMW. Why no one faults BMW for not offering it as standard? Hell BMW is about to only offer Apple Car Play as a subscription based service on their APP.
Last thing - you mention "properly" designed infotainment system. While I agree there are some cars that have bad ones, I don't frankly don't think the Lexus system is that bad. I think the knock on the Lexus infotainment system is overrated and baseless at times. I have yet to see someone knock the W205 C Class system? The C300 system was harder to learn and more confusing than the Lexus. But at the end of the day - I learned it and used it on the go.
The problem here is majority people that are complaining about the infotainment systems don't keep for a long time or they don't want to learn it. They expect it to be so easy - they get it a minute.
Secondly - fit and finish is horrible in the Lexus, you say? That's simply not true. The Lexus fit and finish has been amazing - like its always been. Step into a Mercedes Benz (any Mercedes Benz that isn't an AMG) and start pushing the materials. They all rattle, bend or don't feel solid. Then do the same for Lexus. The Lexus build quality is top notch.
I feel like your "I'm not trying to troll" is actually becoming a troll because everything you said its more of a rant against Lexus. A rant against them because you don't like what's happening to the car company. Here's the best part - if you don't like it, buy something else. We live in a wonderful with competition. Buy a car that fits your needs. Besides - Lexus sales has been up so they don't seem to really care what majority of us (car-heads or car enthusiasts) think anyways. They sell to the mass market like every company.
Dropped the ball with smartphone integration? I'm sorry I don't understand. How? And why?
I personally feel Apple Car Play would be a "nice" feature but its not a life or death feature. Majority of Audi/Porsche owners don't even use it. Same goes for BMW drivers. Essentially - what I'm saying is - if your car has free live traffic and a good infotainment system, Apple Car Play is useless. Unless Waze Maps is a huge deal to you.
Note: I love how everyone faults Lexus for Apple Car Play but not BMW. Why no one faults BMW for not offering it as standard? Hell BMW is about to only offer Apple Car Play as a subscription based service on their APP.
Last thing - you mention "properly" designed infotainment system. While I agree there are some cars that have bad ones, I don't frankly don't think the Lexus system is that bad. I think the knock on the Lexus infotainment system is overrated and baseless at times. I have yet to see someone knock the W205 C Class system? The C300 system was harder to learn and more confusing than the Lexus. But at the end of the day - I learned it and used it on the go.
The problem here is majority people that are complaining about the infotainment systems don't keep for a long time or they don't want to learn it. They expect it to be so easy - they get it a minute.
#34
Lexus Fanatic
Agreed
I also agree. I will add that the base leather in the LS460 is pretty bad. I had it in my 2015 LS and it really reduced my enjoyment of the car. My 2017 has the semi-aniline leather and its a huge upgrade.
I think one area where Lexus quality has declined is their leather seats in some models. The leather in the 02-03 ES300 before it was perforated for the ES330 was like butter. The 2007-2012 ES leather was crap. The leather is the LS has been good since 98 onward. IS leather was/is crap. Nuluxe is almost better than leather in some of the lower end Lexus models, as it shows less wear.
#35
Lexus Test Driver
I think one area where Lexus quality has declined is their leather seats in some models. The leather in the 02-03 ES300 before it was perforated for the ES330 was like butter. The 2007-2012 ES leather was crap. The leather is the LS has been good since 98 onward. IS leather was/is crap. Nuluxe is almost better than leather in some of the lower end Lexus models, as it shows less wear.
I think Apple Car Play is nice to have too. It'll be helpful if you plan to keep your car long term and don't want to pay for the map update. Or if your vehicle lacks a good infotainment system. But - I just think its crazy to have people complain so much about it like it makes the car less luxurious. Majority of the people in the luxury market lease anyway. Why would you lease a luxury car for 3 years just to use Google maps?
#36
I wouldn’t go with the prettiest, I always thought the car was pretty awkward looking, but well built I agree. Earlier ES cars had that terrible
sludging Issue remember, and their interiors were nowhere near as nice.
I think part of it is quality in the whole industry has caught up tremendously, Lexus doesn’t stand apart the way it used to. I think that’s more the issue than a reduction in actual Lexus products.
There has been some usage of cheap plastics inside I find troubling, even on the LX the lower doors and dash are hard cheap plastic which is absurd in such an expensive car.
Wireless CarPlay and wireless phone charging in my BMW have been amazing! Came in handy today actually. I'd like to see that added to Lexuses, and add more soft touch Luxury materials to the interiors.
Last edited by Frog98; 09-12-18 at 05:23 PM.
#37
#38
Lexus Fanatic
I dunno whether I would agree with that actually...the base leather was pretty bad
#39
Lexus Fanatic
Welcome to CL, Therealtru
I strongly agree. Lexus, in general, has been able to keep its smooth-running engines, enviously good repair/reliability record and mirror-finish paint jobs over the years, but, IMO, little else. Sheet metal has gotten noticeably thinner, doors of lighter weight, interior plastics and materials thinner, lighter, and cheaper, sound-insulation material (in some cases) cut back, ride comfort stiffened from firmer suspension and lower-profile tires, and some controls, like the console-mouse, made more gimmicky. And classy, mildly-restrained styling has been replaced by in-your-face boldness. Given the choice, I much prefer those made before the mid-2000s.
I'm a long time Lexus owner that's just really dissapointed in what has become of the brand we love so much. Yes, these cars are not boring anymore, and yes there are still some real treasures in the brand, but what about fit and finish?! These cars feel so cheap now!
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-12-18 at 05:15 PM.
#40
Lead Lap
the master is here!
lexus certainly brought innovation to nearly every component of the new LS. it's plainly a car meant for human beans with soft flesh, certainly not logs. i imagine any bright young man with a credit score of at least 630 just can't wait to park one in their driveway! people like that tend to be information experts who turn everything they touch into gold, yet have the unpretentiousness and reserve to live in a modest house.
lexus certainly brought innovation to nearly every component of the new LS. it's plainly a car meant for human beans with soft flesh, certainly not logs. i imagine any bright young man with a credit score of at least 630 just can't wait to park one in their driveway! people like that tend to be information experts who turn everything they touch into gold, yet have the unpretentiousness and reserve to live in a modest house.
#41
Lexus Test Driver
Welcome to CL, Therealtru
I strongly agree. Lexus, in general, has been able to keep its smooth-running engines, enviously good repair/reliability record and mirror-finish paint jobs over the years, but, IMO, little else. Sheet metal has gotten noticeably thinner, doors of lighter weight, interior plastics and materials thinner, lighter, and cheaper, sound-insulation material (in some cases) cut back, ride comfort stiffened from firmer suspension and lower-profile tires, and some controls, like the console-mouse, made more gimmicky. And classy, mildly-restrained styling has been replaced by in-your-face boldness. Given the choice, I much prefer those made before the mid-2000s.
I strongly agree. Lexus, in general, has been able to keep its smooth-running engines, enviously good repair/reliability record and mirror-finish paint jobs over the years, but, IMO, little else. Sheet metal has gotten noticeably thinner, doors of lighter weight, interior plastics and materials thinner, lighter, and cheaper, sound-insulation material (in some cases) cut back, ride comfort stiffened from firmer suspension and lower-profile tires, and some controls, like the console-mouse, made more gimmicky. And classy, mildly-restrained styling has been replaced by in-your-face boldness. Given the choice, I much prefer those made before the mid-2000s.
Also, the trend for cars to ride stiffer can be said for most brands, not just Lexus. With a few minor exceptions, this has been the direction things have gone since the 80's. Safer handling is the reason, which is all related to accident avoidance due to more responsive handling.
#42
Lead Lap
while i definitely want to just say YEA!!! and agree completely since i always like finding reasons why the things i have are better, i still think toyota does a great job with lexus overall and still consistently topping reliability surveys. while i would love to go back to the 90s lexus approach of the V8 sports couch, mid 2000s lexus did eventually give us the LFA which i can't fault them for AT ALL! it also eventually gave us the spindle grill so for that it nearly entirely cancels out the LFA and all surrounding awesomeness.
i still think they make some of the best cars out there, i just wish they'd focus a bit less on trying to be aggressive and sporty. the engines for the most part (obviously some exceptions) just don't back up the looks. there's nothing that really goes up against like an E400/43, which is a shame since the GS 400 was like the fastest in its class at launch. same as the LS and Supra, both of which now fall behind today's german competition. but like you said, the bean counters caught up.
i still think they make some of the best cars out there, i just wish they'd focus a bit less on trying to be aggressive and sporty. the engines for the most part (obviously some exceptions) just don't back up the looks. there's nothing that really goes up against like an E400/43, which is a shame since the GS 400 was like the fastest in its class at launch. same as the LS and Supra, both of which now fall behind today's german competition. but like you said, the bean counters caught up.
#43
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
thanks for keeping it relatively civil guys.
agree completely. that said, lexus quality is still excellent.
i disagree. people driving lx's are not all mall-shopping, latte drinking soccer moms, many do actually go in rural situations with mud, snow, etc., and those lower hard plastic panels are more durable for boots/shoes/bags/etc coming in and out.
agree completely.
agree again.
LOL actually they're still cooking, but have become very, uh, experimental... yeah, let's go for the chocolate in the omelette or the hot sauce on cheesecake.
you 'had'? you don't still have it? if so, didn't keep it long!
about the warm feelings for '90's and 2000's lexuses... i think some of it is nostalgia for how they were relative to their competition at the time. my '98 rx began to fall apart and feel very old after about 5 years of hard use. my '00 GS400 leather (driver's seat) began to look and feel pretty bad after 6 years. BUT my '00 GS400 was WAAAY better than my neighbor's BMW 540i at the time, even he was jealous.
weight had to be reduced somehow with govt regs on economy. but with soft power closing doors on my g90 i no longer care about 'solid thunk' when closing a door.
back to the OP...
appreciate the opening disclaimer.
in some ways i agree. i feel like early lexus cars were truly head and shoulders different from toyota models. now i feel like they're not much of a step up. part of that is because toyota models have gotten a lot fancier, but some as you say, is due to obvious cost reduction and decontenting in newer lexus models to meet a price/profitability target supposedly without people 'noticing'. both outside and inside it's evident except on top of the line models like LS500 and LC500. i won't even discuss the GX/LX because they're truly ancient. very 'solid' but hopelessly inefficient.
newer models like the CT and even the NX just don't feel like luxury vehicles to me at all. UX looks to me like it could be a subaru.
agree on beautiful and powerful and also agree that i was shocked when i saw the interior of the early LS460's... the cheap plastic center stack shroud was very disappointing and nothing like a beautiful LS430 UL. i do think the later refresh of LS460 was better, and think the LS500 is a HUGE step up.
anyway, thanks for starting the discussion about how you feel and no, i don't think you're trolling, i think you're sincerely disappointed and are entitled to that opinion.
about quality though, i do think lexus vehicles are still extremely well made and designed to last a long time. quality and luxuriousness are two different things. a 4runner is high quality but it sure ain't luxury
agree completely. that said, lexus quality is still excellent.
There has been some usage of cheap plastics inside I find troubling, even on the LX the lower doors and dash are hard cheap plastic which is absurd in such an expensive car.
-personally speaking, I am not supportive of the direction Lexus is going. I do not particularly love the front ends of modern Lexus models and the the remote touch interface is by far the dumbest idea in the history of Lexus. The faster they rid of the RTI, the better! Yes, it is possible to look through any Lexus and find fault.
you 'had'? you don't still have it? if so, didn't keep it long!
about the warm feelings for '90's and 2000's lexuses... i think some of it is nostalgia for how they were relative to their competition at the time. my '98 rx began to fall apart and feel very old after about 5 years of hard use. my '00 GS400 leather (driver's seat) began to look and feel pretty bad after 6 years. BUT my '00 GS400 was WAAAY better than my neighbor's BMW 540i at the time, even he was jealous.
back to the OP...
what about fit and finish?! These cars feel so cheap now!
newer models like the CT and even the NX just don't feel like luxury vehicles to me at all. UX looks to me like it could be a subaru.
... Then there was the Ls460, beautiful car and powerful, but cheap feeling with all kinds of problems the first few years.
anyway, thanks for starting the discussion about how you feel and no, i don't think you're trolling, i think you're sincerely disappointed and are entitled to that opinion.
about quality though, i do think lexus vehicles are still extremely well made and designed to last a long time. quality and luxuriousness are two different things. a 4runner is high quality but it sure ain't luxury
#44
drives cars
agree on beautiful and powerful and also agree that i was shocked when i saw the interior of the early LS460's... the cheap plastic center stack shroud was very disappointing and nothing like a beautiful LS430 UL. i do think the later refresh of LS460 was better, and think the LS500 is a HUGE step up.
anyway, thanks for starting the discussion about how you feel and no, i don't think you're trolling, i think you're sincerely disappointed and are entitled to that opinion.
about quality though, i do think lexus vehicles are still extremely well made and designed to last a long time. quality and luxuriousness are two different things. a 4runner is high quality but it sure ain't luxury
anyway, thanks for starting the discussion about how you feel and no, i don't think you're trolling, i think you're sincerely disappointed and are entitled to that opinion.
about quality though, i do think lexus vehicles are still extremely well made and designed to last a long time. quality and luxuriousness are two different things. a 4runner is high quality but it sure ain't luxury
#45
Lexus Fanatic
I would venture to say almost nobody who bought and drives a new LX is taking it offload and in rural situations, they're used just like any other luxury SUV, and sadly the LX's interior is worst in class. No other vehicle in that class has materials like that in those places.