Big Andy

LeX2K

Hydrogen is not a fuel any more than a battery is. BTW the storage systems for CNG are not anywhere robust enough for hydrogen which is stored at up to 10,000 psi natural gas is barely under pressure in comparison.
Hilarious, and wrong. The only win here is for the likes of Shell.

bagwell

a tiny diesel or decent power?

I still can't handle the fuel smell (assuming you had to fill it up when you returned it) or exhaust fumes/pollution...

I'd be more for gas/hybrids that would work for everyone....or bi-fuel hybrids that can use gas or CNG, Honda used to sell CNG dedicated vehicles and also sell the home fueling stations but has since dropped them to concentrate on conventional hybrids, EVs.

sears1234

My wife like pure electric car/suv very much, we don't buy Tesla because all its car/suv look ugly inside.
If Mercedes, BMW, or Posche can produce long distance EV, we'll definitely buy it.

Sulu

A battery is not a fuel; it is a storage container. But the electricity it stores is a fuel, as is hydrogen. Both electricity and hydrogen may be used to produce energy, which is the definition of a fuel.

Big Andy

I'm guessing that it was your grandad that used to write into the newspapers saying that these new internal combustion engines would never catch on as they required a difficult to get hold of, specially refined fuel, only available from a limited number of outlets and that the horse could be run on the grass in his back yard and had a far greater range.

Here we go; a complete hydrogen generating plant in an ISO container, rapid response and self-pressurizing:

http://www.itm-power.com/product/hgas

I recently met Dr Simon Bourne from ITM Power in Aberdeen and we discussed their technology. It's advancing in leaps and bounds and they recently moved to a huge new factory to accommodate demand for their units. They have 8 filling stations up and running and will be rolling out more as demand increases.

Far from being hilariously wrong this technology is already being used to convert surplus tidal generated electricity and store it as hydrogen to support the local electricity grid at critical times.

I appreciate that if you don't work in this sector you can get out of the loop regarding the latest developments but don't make foolish statements that are patently untrue.

peteharvey

Lexus2000 has the right idea regarding hydrogen engery inefficiency.
Hydrogen is significantly less energy efficient than pure electric, due to the complex process of converting sunlight to hydrogen, and then hydrogen back into electricity.
Complex inter-conversion is energy inefficient.
We start with 100 kWh of solar energy, a battery powered electric vehicle ends up with 69 kWh, while a hydrogen vehicle has only 23 kWh - at best.

The hydrogen fuel cell vehicle also suffers from packaging & dynamic inefficiency with two big bulky thick walled hydrogen tanks under the rear seat base, and in between the rear wheels, with a hydrogen fuel cell under the front seats, and a battery pack behind the rear seat back rests resulting in diminished trunk space with NO rear fold down seats, and forcibly using a much less dynamic FWD layout!
Due to inefficiency, hydrogen in the metric 1.8 ton Toyota Mirai yields only 152 bhp for a disgusting 0-60 in 9.0 seconds - Mr Rhambler won't like this.
Furthermore, the hydrogen fuel cell powered electric vehicle's battery pack will be recycled much more, leading to diminished longevity compared to pure electric vehicles.

Presently, due to the slow recharge of batteries, and the fact that rapid charging causes rapid battery degradation - hydrogen is good for long range driving with quick refilling because the infrastructure is already half-way there considering the abundance of conventional gas filling stations.
However, keep in mind that 90% of the population travel less than 50 miles daily - making EV nightly top-up a cinch for the majority.
That Bitkahuna says that cars parked in the street cannot recharge overnight is true for this population.
Thus hydrogen will mainly be used by the small percentage of cars that do long distance driving, especially commercial vehicles, and those who park in the streets.

Do keep in mind that by 2025-30, future technology like solid state batteries which have higher energy density, longer life cycles & capable of quick charging - will render hydrogen obsolete - but until then, hydrogen rules long distance...

swajames

I've got a lot of cars, some are in my sig plus I have others I don't disclose on forums.

I have a Mirai, so unlike just sharing opinions I can post some actual experience. Mirai is actually one of my favorite cars, and I use it as a commuter car, a task for which it's really well suited. I have three stations nearby, one a block from my office, so H2 availability has been excellent for me.

The car is an enigma in some respects. The "disgusting" 0-60 is actually not a problem at all as you would know if you've driven one. The Mirai is great off the line in town. It slows over 50, but up to 50 it's quick. In the real world it's just fine. It's not like one of my V8's, but it's good for a commuter car. It will pull away from many cars you'd think would beat it. I know, as I've done it.

The main thing is range. It's a fill once every week or two car. I tend to fill my gasoline (and soon diesel) cars at the same stations every time I fill, so it's not really any different with Mirai.

I got it as I thought it was cool tech, and I still like it. Toyota does a lot for owners you don't hear about.

peteharvey

Can Mirai's rear seat back rest be folded down?

Also, is the Mirai's trunk as large as a Prius's?

swajames

No, though I've never personally had any issue with that (the Mirai isn't my only car, and usually it's just me using it most of the time.)

LeX2K

Chief engineer of the Toyota Mirai, Yoshikazu Tanaka said this:

peteharvey

Good article.
It sums it up.
Toyota believes that even though EVs are better than hydrogen, there’s still a place in the market for FCVs.

peteharvey

Also, is this true that you must have your two Mirai hydrogen tanks inspected every 36 months/58,000 km, and have both tanks totally replaced every 15 years?

john341

I had a chance to drive the Mirai, when Toyota brought it to my university in 2016 to show it off, while they moved to Plano, Texas. Its quite punchy at low speeds and handles great, the car is really quite and the only noise you hear is the electric motor and if i remember correctly the high pressure hydrogen being transported to the front. It was a really a surprising to me how normal it was. almost comparable to my es hybrid. The Mirai had zero vibrations that a hybrids usually have, absolute serene car to drive.

bob256k

TRUE! Hydrogen is just a poorer method to get electric from one place to another. The only benefit is you can refuel near instantly compared to recharging. Other than that, hydrogen requires all ne filling stations, new transport trucks, new holding infrastructure and production, and actually uses more energy to create than the energy used in consumption. i lived in norcal near one of a the few H2 stations, took 2-3 years to build, for one "pump".


no idea why any engineer would even consider it over electric and batteries