When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
The 2GR-FKS is a new engine for the Camry, Avalon and ES, but it is not a brand new engine. It was first introduced in this form in 2016 but it is built upon the 2GR block first introduced in 2004, it is NOT a super-efficient TNGA engine, like the A25A 2.5-litre 4-cylinder used in the Camry and ES Hybrid.
As more vehicles are switched over to the new TNGA platforms (Highlander, Sienna, RX, NX and IS, and others still to come) and more TNGA engines and transmissions are introduced, I do not expect Toyota to keep building the old GR (V6), AR (4-cylinder), UR (V8) and other xR engines anymore. Unless the full TNGA engine lineup is delayed past 6 or 7 years (i.e. the full cycle of this new ES), I expect the ES, Avalon and Camry to use all TNGA engines before the end of their current cycle.
Note that the 2.0-litre turbocharged 4-cylinder used in the NX and IS is NOT a TNGA engine; I expect it to be replaced in due course, probably when the new NX is introduced.
Why does it have to be a brand new engine to be considered a "TNGA engine"? TNGA is just the name of a platform. If an engine fits and can be mounted on the TNGA platform, it's a TNGA engine IMHO.
Please reread my post. I was specifically talking about the hump size, not whether or not the hump is already there.
Come on folks. Hard to keep the mind clean with all this talk about hump size lol.
Anyways...who's to say Lexus has not come up with a extremely compact AWD system where it can fit within the space that's already there? Notice I didnt once use the word shaft or hump? Keeping it clean!
Why does it have to be a brand new engine to be considered a "TNGA engine"? TNGA is just the name of a platform. If an engine fits and can be mounted on the TNGA platform, it's a TNGA engine IMHO.
Forget about TNGA or not. I think he meant to say it is not the new gen Dynamic Force engines. The current 3.5L should not be considered new since it added things that the engine in the previous gen already had, with more power. Its a great engine still and it overpowers the FWD cars that it is being shoved in, but heavier duty stuff like hauling around vehicles like the Tacoma, Sienna, Highlander and RX, it is just not cutting it.
Come on folks. Hard to keep the mind clean with all this talk about hump size lol.
Anyways...who's to say Lexus has not come up with a extremely compact AWD system where it can fit within the space that's already there? Notice I didnt once use the word shaft or hump? Keeping it clean!
It already exists. Compact awd systems for FWD are totally different than awd current used in the Lexus RWD cars. If you look underneath a Fusion or LaCrosse, there is a metal rod connecting the rear drive, totally different, more efficient and better. Fusion and Lacrosse piping go right underneath the hump and drive rod.
The naysayers on ES awd do not understand how it would be done. They incorrectly assume it will set up like the current Lexus sedans. Driveshaft in the middle with the piping on each side. They are wrong.
It already exists. Compact awd systems for FWD are totally different than awd current used in the Lexus RWD cars. If you look underneath a Fusion or LaCrosse, there is a metal rod connecting the rear drive, totally different, more efficient and better. Fusion and Lacrosse piping go right underneath the hump and drive rod.
The naysayers on ES awd do not understand how it would be done. They incorrectly assume it will set up like the current Lexus sedans. Driveshaft in the middle with the piping on each side. They are wrong.
If a car has its engine and transmission in the front and driven wheels in the rear, there will be a driveshaft to connect the output of the transmission to the rear differential. It does not matter if the car is a front-engine, RWD vehicle or a front-engine, FWD-based AWD vehicle, a driveshaft will connect the output of the transmission in the front of the vehicle to the rear differential.
The "metal rod" on the examples given (Fusion and LaCrosse) is still a driveshaft. Its function is the same as a driveshaft on an IS, LS, Ford Mustang or Cadillac CT6, which is to connect the output of the transmission in the front with the rear differential.
The driveshaft diameter on FWD-based AWD vehicles (such as the Ford Fusion AWD model) may be smaller, but I can see 2 reasons for that: The driveshaft may be made of a higher-strength material that can better withstand the torque load; or the total torque load (the torque on the driveshaft and the amount of time that the driveshaft is actually being turned by the transmission) on FWD-based AWD cars is less than the torque on a RWD vehicle (this is the more likely reason, in my opinion).
The 2GR-FKS is a new engine for the Camry, Avalon and ES, but it is not a brand new engine. It was first introduced in this form in 2016 but it is built upon the 2GR block first introduced in 2004, it is NOT a super-efficient TNGA engine, like the A25A 2.5-litre 4-cylinder used in the Camry and ES Hybrid.
As more vehicles are switched over to the new TNGA platforms (Highlander, Sienna, RX, NX and IS, and others still to come) and more TNGA engines and transmissions are introduced, I do not expect Toyota to keep building the old GR (V6), AR (4-cylinder), UR (V8) and other xR engines anymore. Unless the full TNGA engine lineup is delayed past 6 or 7 years (i.e. the full cycle of this new ES), I expect the ES, Avalon and Camry to use all TNGA engines before the end of their current cycle.
Note that the 2.0-litre turbocharged 4-cylinder used in the NX and IS is NOT a TNGA engine; I expect it to be replaced in due course, probably when the new NX is introduced.
I never said it was a brand new engine. Its a new engine for the Camry, Avalon and ES, which why, in my opinion, Toyota won't switch it out till next gen. That begs the question - if you say Toyota is planning to switch out all the engines to these "TNGA engines" as you call it, then why not do it upon release? Why make it so confusing by marketing a 30+HP increase over the older model just to change the engine less than 3 years later? This is bad development and marketing cost. Because Toyota created the Camry, Avalon, and ES to fit the 2GR-FKS and then a 1-3 years later they'll have to change the engine and the engine bay again?
And its actually built upon the 2GR block that first introduced in 2002, not 2004.
Secondly - what is a "TNGA engine and transmission"?. Just because a new platform comes out doesn't mean a new engine or transmission comes out along with it. Engines are not tied to platform changes.
While I agree Toyota are introducing new engines, I disagree they are going to stop keep building on the older engines. Toyota is slow moving. Its likely they slowly introduce new engines as well as building on new ones and then over time, maybe several years, they'll phase out the older engines.
You can see this in their line-up:
I mean, the first TNGA platform was introduced in 2015 with the Prius. Its been 2-3 years, and the Prius have yet to get the "TNGA engines". Its still using the 2ZR engine from 2007.
The Prius Prime was introduced in 2017 with the same 2ZR engine as well.
The Toyota C-HR came to America in 2018 with a 3ZR engine.
The Lexus LC still uses the 2UR and 8GR
The Lexus LS still uses the 8GR hybrid too.
The Toyota Crown still uses 8AR and 8GR (and there is a A25A hybrid as well)
There only cars that a new engine was the Camry, Avalon, Corolla Hatch and RAV4. They are either the A25A or the M20A, which is 2 N/A I4 engine. Its Toyota's new family of I4 engines. It will not be possible for Toyota it introduced 3-4 different types of engines with in the next 3 years and shove them into every car inside the Toyota/Lexus line-up. The smart use of money with be phase them out over time. The TTV6 is expected to trickle down but to assume Lexus will be so nice to give that to you on a Lexus IS in less than 3 years is insane. Lexus didn't even change out the IS250/350 engine from the 2G Lexus till 10 years later. They'll milk these engines till they are dry. This is why Toyota is so profitable.
Originally Posted by spwolf
it is going to be 2.5t in Japan, so worldwide too, i wonder if it is with AWD... BUT, I doubt this will change V6 in NA market, does not make sense, people dont want 4cly turbo.
For users in other countries, lots less taxes with 2.5t vs V6.
I know you read that the 2.5T from a Japanese magazine that talks about rumors. But please don't address them as facts when its not 100% confirmed. I mean - how accurate is this magazine anyways? Its talking about an engine change for a car that isn't even on sale yet.
Keep in mind - if the 2.5T does exist, the Camry/Avalon in these markets will have to change too.
Keep in mind that not all engines will be in the US-market.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
It already exists. Compact awd systems for FWD are totally different than awd current used in the Lexus RWD cars. If you look underneath a Fusion or LaCrosse, there is a metal rod connecting the rear drive, totally different, more efficient and better. Fusion and Lacrosse piping go right underneath the hump and drive rod.
The naysayers on ES awd do not understand how it would be done. They incorrectly assume it will set up like the current Lexus sedans. Driveshaft in the middle with the piping on each side. They are wrong.
I think majority of the naysayers on the AWD ES stems from the business side of it. We don't think Toyota will make an AWD ES because it won't yield a good amount of profits for the investment. This is a business after-all. With the SUV craze going on and AWD take-rate very low, how much AWD ES will Lexus really sell? And majority of people that need AWD will buy an SUV anyways.
I feel like the only reason this rumor of an AWD ES is so strong is because of the GS axing rumors. There was never a demand during the 6G ES for an AWD and surely there isn't one now. Toyota knows they will sell these like hot-cakes without an AWD system.
Eh if the ES were to change engines in the middle of its life cycle, it wouldn't be the first time Lexus did it. The 3GS started off with 3L/4.3L engines before switching over to the 3.5L / 4.6L
Why does it have to be a brand new engine to be considered a "TNGA engine"? TNGA is just the name of a platform. If an engine fits and can be mounted on the TNGA platform, it's a TNGA engine IMHO.
As has already been said, the TNGA engines I am talking about are the new Dynamic Force engines. These are totally new, extremely efficient engines.
Eh if the ES were to change engines in the middle of its life cycle, it wouldn't be the first time Lexus did it. The 3GS started off with 3L/4.3L engines before switching over to the 3.5L / 4.6L
to add, the same thing happened with the 3IS. The IS250 (2.5L V6) was replaced with the IS300 (2.0L I4 turbo).
There's a good probability that lexus would do it with this new ES.
to add, the same thing happened with the 3IS. The IS250 (2.5L V6) was replaced with the IS300 (2.0L I4 turbo).
There's a good probability that lexus would do it with this new ES.
Well - in my opinion, for the 3IS, the only reason the IS250 was changed mid-cycle was because it retained the old V6 engines into the 3G IS. The AR Turbo and the 2GR-FKS should have been in the 3G IS from the start of the gen, in my opinion.
I think the ES wouldn't change because Toyota introduced a new engine on the Camry, Avalon and ES that was never on there before already.
Eh if the ES were to change engines in the middle of its life cycle, it wouldn't be the first time Lexus did it. The 3GS started off with 3L/4.3L engines before switching over to the 3.5L / 4.6L
That wouldnt be a bad thing at all since that will keep the thing fresher for longer and give people a reason to upgrade. However, I dont think a FWD car like the ES can utilize any additional power. Hence AWD is needed if they were to add a more powerful engine. The new Camry, Avalon and now the ES has too much wheel spin when taking off negatively affecting its 0-60 times.
That wouldnt be a bad thing at all since that will keep the thing fresher for longer and give people a reason to upgrade. However, I dont think a FWD car like the ES can utilize any additional power. Hence AWD is needed if they were to add a more powerful engine. The new Camry, Avalon and now the ES has too much wheel spin when taking off negatively affecting its 0-60 times.
This is very true. If any power upgrade is needed, AWD will be a must.
Tons of reviews have said the ES has tons of wheel spin. However - Sofyan from redline reviews, did mention not all ES owners (main consumers) will utilize all the power so AWD might be not be needed.
who says it is a V6? There are certainly 2 V8's, but one arger than 2.5l NA engine could be 2.5t that Japanese have been writing about... and usually BestCar has good sources.
who says it is a V6? There are certainly 2 V8's, but one arger than 2.5l NA engine could be 2.5t that Japanese have been writing about... and usually BestCar has good sources.
Just speculating so forgive me - but could it be a non-turbo version of the 3.5-liter twin-turbo from the LS? It's a "dynamic force" engine, so perhaps it is capable of running naturally aspirated with improved efficiency. Though, in the picture I don't see a V6 naturally aspirated on the Dynamic Force line (just the hybrid line). Unless I mistaking one of those V6s for a V8.
06-11-18, 07:59 AM
