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The "simple" hybrids only have one electric motor-generator, so I see them as either-or powertrains -- either you use the motor to drive the vehicle or you use the motor to recharge the battery but you cannot do both. If and when the hybrid battery runs down, the vehicle is forced to run as a conventional vehicle while it charges the battery.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I do see my new Mecedes GLC 350e can use both electric and engine together, it has prefered four modes: hybrid, e-mode, e-save, and e-charge.
I had 10 Lexus RX450H and 12 CT, TBH, I think Mecedes GLC 350e is far more superior than both of Lexus hybrid, for example:
1. the electric and engine transition is almost unnoticeable.
2. the hybrid work very closely with radar detector, it automatically adjust energy regenerating rate before a stop or when you follow the front car.
3. the hybrid system also work with navigation system, if user has navigation route, the system will decide when to use more electric or engine, for example, when you drive up hill,it will use almost all electric first, then let the car to charge the battery in down hill, or if you are ten miles away to a town or slow traffic road, it will reserve electric now,let user use more electric locally.
4. if user doesn't use navigation route, the hybrid system will look 4 miles ahead to guess the best hybrid usage.
5. the combined power is really really impressive.
6.the electric range is just good for city drive.
I believe that the hybrid payback concept was first voiced by those who do not understand -- and so have come to fear -- hybrid vehicles. This payback concept was not used as an argument for not buying diesel vehicles, even though diesels also carried a premium over comparable gasoline vehicles. So why has it become such an obsession for hybrid vehicles?
Well, even in Europe, when diesels starting coming up seriously, certainly a payback was used to calculate if it was worth it.
But, all parts of equation were used for calculation, not just initial cost... for instance in Europe diesel/hybrid vs petrol:
1. Initial cost premium= +$3000
2. Better mpg benefit= -$600-$800 per year
3. Faster than non-turbo petrol - priceless. In hybrids this would be smoothness and extra passing power.
4. Resale value - easily +$1500
5. Cheaper maintenance in hybrids case.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I do see my new Mecedes GLC 350e can use both electric and engine together, it has prefered four modes: hybrid, e-mode, e-save, and e-charge.
I had 10 Lexus RX450H and 12 CT, TBH, I think Mecedes GLC 350e is far more superior than both of Lexus hybrid, for example:
1. the electric and engine transition is almost unnoticeable.
2. the hybrid work very closely with radar detector, it automatically adjust energy regenerating rate before a stop or when you follow the front car.
3. the hybrid system also work with navigation system, if user has navigation route, the system will decide when to use more electric or engine, for example, when you drive up hill,it will use almost all electric first, then let the car to charge the battery in down hill, or if you are ten miles away to a town or slow traffic road, it will reserve electric now,let user use more electric locally.
4. if user doesn't use navigation route, the hybrid system will look 4 miles ahead to guess the best hybrid usage.
5. the combined power is really really impressive.
6.the electric range is just good for city drive.
It’s not just the Mercedes that are ahead. The BMW 330e, 530e etc are also modern day alternatives to the pioneering, but antiquated Prius based Lexus hybrids, like my car. And the concept is quite simple, replacing the torque converter in the excellent ZF 8 speed auto box with an electric motor. Stark comparison with Lexus' Multi-stage hybrid system which so far has been not so well received. At the Lexus UX launch they announced some improvements to their hybrid system using data similar to what you mentioned in your post. But there are no performance options for enthusiasts, potentially forcing them to look at rival offerings who seem to be improving in reliability as well.
It’s not just the Mercedes that are ahead. The BMW 330e, 530e etc are also modern day alternatives to the pioneering, but antiquated Prius based Lexus hybrids, like my car. And the concept is quite simple, replacing the torque converter in the excellent ZF 8 speed auto box with an electric motor. Stark comparison with Lexus' Multi-stage hybrid system which so far has been not so well received. At the Lexus UX launch they announced some improvements to their hybrid system using data similar to what you mentioned in your post. But there are no performance options for enthusiasts, potentially forcing them to look at rival offerings who seem to be improving in reliability as well.
actually they are very simple hybrids, and very poor ones at that... They have only a single motor so they can not power the wheels and charge the battery at the same time. So once you deplete your battery pack that you charged at home, you get very poor performance from the "hybrid" system, you are basically dragging all the dead weight... unlike for instance Prius Prime that still gets 50 MPG when you deplete the plugin battery.
It is definitely not advanced and not ahead of anything... it is poor technological solution and far below what Toyota, Honda and Nissan hybrids can do.
It is definitely not advanced and not ahead of anything... it is poor technological solution and far below what Toyota, Honda and Nissan hybrids can do.
so how do toyota, honda, and nissan hybrids differ?
about the 1 vs 2 motor solution, i expect the difference is lost on the public and german brands have confused the market entirely lol
Maybe I'm wrong, but I do see my new Mecedes GLC 350e can use both electric and engine together, it has prefered four modes: hybrid, e-mode, e-save, and e-charge.
I had 10 Lexus RX450H and 12 CT, TBH, I think Mecedes GLC 350e is far more superior than both of Lexus hybrid, for example:
1. the electric and engine transition is almost unnoticeable.
2. the hybrid work very closely with radar detector, it automatically adjust energy regenerating rate before a stop or when you follow the front car.
3. the hybrid system also work with navigation system, if user has navigation route, the system will decide when to use more electric or engine, for example, when you drive up hill,it will use almost all electric first, then let the car to charge the battery in down hill, or if you are ten miles away to a town or slow traffic road, it will reserve electric now,let user use more electric locally.
4. if user doesn't use navigation route, the hybrid system will look 4 miles ahead to guess the best hybrid usage.
5. the combined power is really really impressive.
6.the electric range is just good for city drive.
All of the German hybrids, including the Mercedes-Benz hybrids, can use the engine and the electric motor together.
The EV to engine-on transition and back to engine-off is not noticeable in my ESh either.
The integration of the navigation system with powertrain control, and the availability of a wide variety of different drive modes is something that the Germans do well but the Japanese do not. I would like to see a wider variety of different drive modes in my next Lexus Hybrid; the ability to run in gasoline engine mode to save battery charge for later, when I know that I will be in stop-and-go traffic, would be great.
Stark comparison with Lexus' Multi-stage hybrid system which so far has been not so well received.
The Multi-stage Hybrid system is new technology and something that no other automaker has yet tried, so it is not fair to say that it is not well received.
It is NOT just adding an ancient-sounding 4-speed automatic transmission to the back-end of the Power Split Device; it involves a lot of complicated software controls to multiply the 3 simulated gear ratios in the PSD with the first 3 gear ratios in the 4-speed automatic transmission to create 9 gear ratios. With the 4th overdrive gear ratio in the automatic transmission, that creates 10 different gear ratios. Getting all of that to work smoothly is going to take some time to tune from real-life, real-road experience.
We chose the hybrid Highlander over the conventional model for a few reasons.
We liked the smooth power delivery
We loved how the engine would turn off in stop/go traffic, using electric only
We get about 40% better gas mileage over the conventional Highlander
Price premium for the hybrid could be recovered during our 3 year lease term
Longer range on a tank means less frequent trips to the gas station
Highlander Hybrid does not lose any interior/cargo capacity over the gas version
It's not a drivetrain that everybody loves, I understand that, but it works really well for us.
My only regret on it is that we bought a 16 and should have waited for the 17. There was a huge price drop in the premium for the hybrid vs the gas version for the 2017 model. Oh well, our RX350 lease was up and we didn't want to extend it to wait for the 17s to arrive. On the current Highlander Limited Platinum, it's only $1600 more for the hybrid. It was around $6k more when we bought ours.
actually they are very simple hybrids, and very poor ones at that... They have only a single motor so they can not power the wheels and charge the battery at the same time. So once you deplete your battery pack that you charged at home, you get very poor performance from the "hybrid" system, you are basically dragging all the dead weight... unlike for instance Prius Prime that still gets 50 MPG when you deplete the plugin battery.
It is definitely not advanced and not ahead of anything... it is poor technological solution and far below what Toyota, Honda and Nissan hybrids can do.
Thanks for your views. Do you think this comparison is off the mark?
The Multi-stage Hybrid system is new technology and something that no other automaker has yet tried, so it is not fair to say that it is not well received.
It is NOT just adding an ancient-sounding 4-speed automatic transmission to the back-end of the Power Split Device; it involves a lot of complicated software controls to multiply the 3 simulated gear ratios in the PSD with the first 3 gear ratios in the 4-speed automatic transmission to create 9 gear ratios. With the 4th overdrive gear ratio in the automatic transmission, that creates 10 different gear ratios. Getting all of that to work smoothly is going to take some time to tune from real-life, real-road experience.
And isn’t that similar to what the Germans used to be accused of...releasing products into the market that is almost but not quite ready? To me it seems the ZF approach is simpler, more practical, rather than more complicated? Reviews seem be more positive than theMulti stage hybrid, from what I have come across anyhow.
And isn’t that similar to what the Germans used to be accused of...releasing products into the market that is almost but not quite ready? To me it seems the ZF approach is simpler, more practical, rather than more complicated? Reviews seem be more positive than theMulti stage hybrid, from what I have come across anyhow.
I did not say that it was not ready only that further refinement from real-life, real-road experience is probably necessary.
Back in 2008, the GS450h was incredibly accelerative; it accelerated like a rocket ship! Enormous fun.
However, the trunk only had half the length, and suit cases simply could not fit.
The ride on 18" was like an after thought and very choppy.
Then I had to wonder about the extra weight on the handling.
So I went GS350.
I was just about to buy the 2015 GS450h for the superior low speed torque & environmental conservation, but then I thought about:
(1) Payback: A taxi will payback quickly, but with my low annual mileage, it will take a long long time to payback.
(2) I had problems fitting a lawn mower in the trunk, and could no longer pass through long objects like broom sticks through the rear center fold down arm rest. I wish they could have put a compact lithium ion battery pack under the rear seat base sooner, and this would help lower the center of gravity too.
(3) The effect of an extra 400 lbs weight on agility [the speed of change in direction] and terminal grip.
Even in 5 years time, when EV's become more widespread, I am still concerned about:
1) The effect of losing 4" in vertical cabin space to store the battery pack under the floor of a sedan.
2) The effect of the extra hundreds and hundreds of pounds weight on the agility and terminal grip.
Though both disadvantages could be easily solved a breakthrough in battery technology.
It could be a good 10 years before EV's really breakthrough...
05-23-18, 07:17 PM
