Originally Posted by RNM GS3

Originally Posted by SW17LS

Originally Posted by UDel

Yes it does, FWD cars are generally lighter because you can combine the powertrain into one main unit and there is less drivetrain loss in FWD vehicles, they can be made more compact, lighter, while still offering good room as everything is to drive the car is generally located at the very front. If FWD had nothing to do with better fuel economy there would be RWD economy cars and family sedans and automakers would offer more RWD cars. They got rid of many RWD cars in the 70's due to regulations and high gas prices.

With standard all season tires, FWD cars will offer better traction, not everyone wants to have a separate set of snow tires for their RWD car. Traction control systems are very good but it still does not take away the fact that FWD offers better traction then RWD when they have the same basic tires, in most cases FWD with a good set of all season tires will handle winter driving in the US well with no real issues, it will be more difficult with RWD with the same tires in some scenarios. I have driven RWD cars with good all seasons in the snow with no real problems too but they still did not offer the same traction, ease, lack of drama as FWD cars I have driven in the snow with all seasons.


http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...efficient.html

https://www.motorists.org/blog/pros-...l-wheel-drive/

https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/artic...-best-for-you/

Originally Posted by SW17LS

Originally Posted by MattyG

IMHO, also because those cars offer variations on the same architecture and so much choice. VW's GTI at various times has been sold in two door and four door. It can run ridiculous variations on hp up to 300. It's cousin, the A3 is a nicely styled sedan but it's also available in a sport back or hatch variation. Horsepower can range from 220 hp to 290 hp with a 0-60 time of 4.6 secs. For the limitations of the fwd platform, they may use awd to mitigate that or just balance out with limited slip differential.

As you've said, not the same class of buyers so the 2019 ES will likely stick to sedan and a hybrid drivetrain with a possible awd option. It's entry level luxury but certainly not a rwd or even a longitudinal drivetrain that mimicks rwd, like Audi does.

Originally Posted by BippuLexus

I find that everyone made good points and it was a definitely an interesting read.

I'll agree with SW17LS for the most part. I get where hes coming from. Its not so much that he doesn't like FWD - its more of he doesn't want a FWD Camry/Avalon re-skinned car to be the the replacement for the GS. I don't want a Camry/Avalon re-skinned ES to be a GS replacement either. The Lexus ES is a great car and amazingly comfortable to drive. I personally like the Lexus ES and I think its a great car, however, I wouldn't want Lexus to pretend its a GS replacement when its not and I personally wouldn't buy one either because its a Camry/Avalon in a suit. The Lexus ES can stay where it is and do what it needs to do. But the Lexus GS needs to be a baby Lexus LS with a RWD set-up.

Secondly - I do, however, disagree with SW17LS for saying "real car enthusiasts" don't tend to like FWD cars. There are plenty of FWD cars that car enthusiasts love to drive and take on twisty roads. There are a number of fun-to-drive FWD hot-hatches that car enthusiasts love - the Civic Type R being one of them.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

Better is subjective to each individual buyer. RWD is not the end all for premium segments. The GS vs ES debate is getting lame, Almost anyone can see that the ES350 is a far better packaged vehicle than the GS. That being said, the GS perhaps maybe the better driving car, but most people want more than just the better driving car.

Originally Posted by SW17LS

Exactly. All one has to do is sit in a GS and sit in an ES and its immediately apparent that the GS is a better car with better materials, more solid build. The feel of the doors, all the switchgear, I could go on and on.

Just because something sells better doesn't mean it is better. Look at the terrible product we had in the Camry for years, literally the least appealing car in the segment in my opinion yet it sold the best. Like I said, people like mediocrity.

Its not about the ES vs the GS, its about making a case for why the GS still needs to exist. That mainstream, non enthusiast buyer will always be there for the ES. What we need to demand as enthusiasts and as people who understand why the GS is better is that Lexus continues to create cars that are designed for us as well, otherwise it really is time to relegate the brand to the level of Acura and move on to other companies who are working much harder to provide products that appeal to us.

The LS is such a car, for all the things I dislike about it, so I have hope they won't abandon the GS.

The ES is a fine car, but its comparable to a Buick LaCrosse, a Volvo S90, a Lincoln MKX, a Toyota Avalon. Its not a "real" luxury vehicle. Thats fine when Lexus has another car to compete against "real" entries like the 5 Series, E Class, A6, etc. No FWD ES, however nicely appointed can hold a candle to those cars because it its core its still a Camry. For Lexus to just abandon that segment which defines the luxury sedan in America would really be a shame.

Originally Posted by situman

Very true. Not everyone is willing to pay a huge premium for a better driving car. It has to offer a lot more like much more power, more luxury, more space, just more. And the GS just doesnt offer much more of any of those for a $10k+ premium.

Originally Posted by situman

I think the enthusiasm for the GS is only in this forum, somewhat. Demanding a car to exists that no one buys is pointless. Even an enthusiast like you didnt buy another one. Your current and last car was the LS right? I'm leasing a GS now and can't wait to get out of it. If the new ES looks anywhere as good as the rendering above, and have an AWD option, the GS is definitely not needed. The TNGA definitely has the goods to make the ES a good driving car, or at least a sports package model that stiffens the suspension.