What is your point you are trying to make? Evidence supports the notion that Honda and Toyota last longer than American cars, across all segments.

 

Not trying to annoy you, Jill....so don't take it personally. Just pointing out that one has to be careful today how they refer to American, European, Japanese, Chinese, of Korean vehicles. It's truly a global industry. Toyota does not necessarily lead even in efficiency anymore, as the Prius now slightly trails the MPG of the Hyundai Ioniq....IF the posted figures for the Ioniq are accurate, as both Hyundai and Ford been called out for, before, on their hybrids.

 

Toyota does lead in efficiency. As the new models are starting to appear, you are seeing this across all categories of the cars.

 

Maybe.....we'll see. Right now, the Ioniq, if the figures are accurate, is the gas-economy champ. Whether the next-generation plug-in Prius betters it or not remains to be seen. But, right now, what is hampering the Prius the most (besides the switch to SUV sales) is probably not the fuel-economy figures, but its circus-clown looks. Toyota would be wise to tone it down a little for the next-generation.

 

Why are you talking about Hyundai? I had said Toyota vs the American brands with regards to efficiency and most of my comments

I am going back to Buick Enclave discussion. The older RX still beats the new Enclave in MPG by 2MPG combined.

 

What I'm talking about is the current generation Explorer, not previous generation Explorers. Mine was a 1995 and it was very efficient interior volume relative to exterior size.

 

Definitely the earlier ones were more space efficient. Their only real problems were the ancient Twin-I-Beam suspension up front and the Firestone Wilderness tires. And that was back before you had kids, so I guess you needed the interior space for other things.

 

ok, this isn't about 20 yr old explorers, taxi cabs, or whether toyota is reliable.

 

deleted taxi and toyota posts...

not interested in buick avenir? find another thread. thanks.

 

I think Buick would gain a lot of respect if the real wood option was standard. Same with real leather. I can't believe the steering wheel on Avenir is real but the accent trim is faux.

 

Maybe so, but BMW, MB and Lexus now make leather optional on many models. On the BMW boards, there's thread after thread with debates as to whether BMW's Sensatec leatherette is the better choice--some argue it's more durable, and you can't tell the difference.

Is that what Buick is doing here? No--prob just cost cutting. But accent trim "fake" leather is pretty much the norm.

 

As long as it's good quality, I don't see any problem with the fake stuff.....Lexus, in fact, with its superb NuLuxe, does some of the best, and the leatherette in my Lacrosse Preferred-trim level is almost as good. What I didn't like was the MB-Tex fake stuff that Mercedes used to have, similar fake stuff that Audi and BMW used, and even the Navajo Leather package on some BMWs, which was the real stuff but rough-feeling and unimpressive. But, like I said, I don't see an problem with good quality fake stuff, as it often feels as good as leather but is more resistant to weathering/cracking and doesn't need as many periodic treatments with Armor-All or other silicone preservatives. But it doesn't, of course, have a nice smell that lasts as long as leather.

 

Well, folks.....we've been discussing what's probably a moot point. I think I can end this fake vs. real leather argument on the Avenir, once and for all. According to Buick's web-site, the Enclave Avenir does have real leather seats. Leather is standard on everything from the Essence-level up...same with the Lacrosse.

Here is the scoop from Buick's own stats:

http://www.buick.com/suvs/enclave-mi...own.html#/trim

ENCLAVE 1SV

ESSENCE
Includes or replaces features on Enclave (1SV), plus:

• Perforated leather-appointed seats

PREMIUM
Includes or replaces features on Essence

AVENIR
Includes or replaces features on Premium,


One feature, however, on the Enclave Avenir, that I think IS annoying (and, for what little it's worth, I'm going to say something to the Buick reps at the D.C. Auto show about it) is why, on a 55K package (to start), is the package restricted to only five colors?

Avenir Package

• 5 exterior colors [White Frost Tricoat, Satin Steel Metallic, Pepperdust Metallic, Dark Slate Metallic and Ebony Twilight Metallic]

Personally, I happen to like the Pepperdust (grayish-gold/flake) color, especially when the sun hits it. In fact, I ordered it on my own Lacrosse. But, nevertheless, why is Buick's most expensive version of the Enclave restricted to white, black, and three shades of gray, when lower-line Essence and Premium models get up to nine colors, including dark brown, black cherry (a very dark red), and bright red tint quartz? Simply doesn't make sense to me. The base 1SV choice is even worse...only three colors (white/black/silver).

 

Again, there is a "buy American" mentality that still exists. But one has to take it with a grain of salt. Look in a UPS distribution center's employee lot. There are tons of nice cars, and guess what? a lot of them are German. Yet these are Union folks.

Just as Japanese cars still have a reliability image, whether true or not, imho American cars sell with the "buy American" marketing push.

A Buick GMC service manager was telling me about the wind buffeting issue on the latest gen suburban/Denali. I dunno if that was ever solved, but he said you can't even imagine how irate people are when they shelled out 80k for a car and we can't fix a wind noise for them after 2 visits. These problems imho tell me there is still an old school mentality with these vehicles.

I can also say this much, from observation, people who were likely born 1978+, and served in the military, no longer feel that it's necessary to buy a vehicle because it's an American make. They likely, like anybody else, buy what is best for their money.

 

Yep.....and some of those German-nameplate vehicles are built right here in the U.S., with American labor. BMW, for instance, has a plant at Spartanburg, SC, and Mercedes at Tuscaloosa, AL.

Wind noise on big, shoe-box-styled SUVs is probably not surprising. They don't exactly have race-car aerodynamics.

I was born long before 1978, and I, like many others with me, got tired of American lemons back in the early 1980s. of course, American-nameplate cars are far better today than they were in the late 1970s and 1980s...when they arguably reached their low point.