arentz07

Perhaps their ratings haven't adequately evolved with the times? I rode to work today with a coworker in his late-90s Ford Taurus. That was considered a mid-size sedan back then, but the interior is barely larger, if any, compared to my 2016 IS. I'd say that's partly down to the interior design, but still, from the outside you'd think it'd be roomier inside.

I just checked the passenger compartment volume - 90.2 cu. in. for the IS, 101 cu. in. for the Taurus. For comparison, our 2017 Honda Civic sedan has 97.8! That's not a difference you'd be able to really "feel".

Sulu

A car's EPA size class is determined by a combination of passenger and cargo volume, so hatchbacks, with their large (perceived) cargo volume, are at an advantage. Using this example, the Honda Civic 5-door (hatchback) is considered a fullsize car, whereas the Honda Civic 4-door (sedan) is only a midsize car.


We may have the same concern. My concern is that GM (and the other American automakers) may be repeating history if they dump cars and rely (almost) completely on crossover and sport utility vehicles. This is what happened prior to 2007/2008 and contributed to the near-downfall of the American automakers.

At the time of the bankruptcy, the American automakers had put all of their eggs in too few baskets, and were much too reliant on trucks -- pickup trucks and body-on-frame SUVs.They did sell cars but they were terrible, ancient models that were not profitable. I would not want to see that happen again.

What saved them then -- and should save them should this happen again -- is that their overseas subsidiaries built good cars and they were able to import that technology to North America. Let's hope that some cars are left in the automakers' lineups so that there is something to fall back on when the current CUV and SUV fashion trend ends. Americans are very fashion conscious and fashion trends are cyclical.

Aron9000

I don't see this SUV/Crossover trend going anywhere, its been an entrenched and growing market segment for the better part of 3 decades now. What IMO has really pushed the explosive growth of the crossovers in the past few years is the technology. No longer do SUV's have bad gas mileage and tippy handling like that 1994 Ford Explorer, gas mileage is only slightly worse than a similar sedan and the handling is so damn close to a car that its good enough for most buyers.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

well since they're already doing it with a cuv, i wouldn't be surprised if some sedans are next if they think it's worth it.

i don't consider them worthless because what difference does it really make what the external dimensions are? except really long vehicles regardless of interior size are difficult to park, turn, etc.

not sure i remember it that way... the auto makers almost went bankrupt (and gm/chrysler would have without govt bailouts but they wouldn't have gone away, just restructured) because the economic crash meant sales of ALL vehicles went into the toilet. people just held on to what they were driving.

Toys4RJill

I would call it a decline or falling out of popularity. A threat I don't see it as these cars are not being purchased for anywhere close to the MSRP as big discounts are needed to move them. Its not like there are people out there saying to themselves "I can't find this big Impala or LaCrosse"

What GM probably needs to do is merge the XTS, LaCrosse, CT6, Impala all into one platform and brand. For the life of me I can't believe Cadillac does not have a FWD ES vehicle under the Cadillac brand, the ES segment would probably be Cadillacs biggest and best opportunity to be relevant again. GM could make the Impala (Avalon) and Cadillac (ES) vehicles, they would be in much better position. I think it is safe to say that Americans won't miss the XTS and LaCrosse if GM did decide to cancel them.

mmarshall

Well, that's just it. Big discounts aren't necessarily moving them. That's why I did this thread in the first place.

I agree that Cadillac, at least to an extent, is paying a price for going after BMW too much in their sedan-marketing (which is something that I predicted, several years ago, would happen). You are correct that they need a FWD ES competitor (the XTS actually competes more with the Lexus GS). But that also begs the question that if the Lacrosse isn't selling under the Buick nameplate, would it sell as a Cadillac? I'm not so sure.

I would definitely miss the Lacrosse if it were cancelled...just like I miss the Verano. But then, I realize I'm probably in the minority....the majority, these days, seem infatuated with SUVs. Of course, of the Lacrosse is dropped there's still the MKZ, Continental, Cadenza, ES350, and G80 ....assuming, of course that these cars aren't dropped, too (FWD or AWD is a must for me...no RWD). I'll probably be driving for quite a few years yet....as long as my general health and reflexes are still good

mjeds

Never been a fan of SUV's while I do like and have owned several extended cab and crew cab style trucks, I don't care for SUVs, A Truck to me is when you need it for work related things, and I don't mean just employment, I mean things like trips to the hardware store, camping, moving, hauling stuff. I've always kept a small P/U around for that purpose, not as an every day driver but as a beater to trips to the hardware store or the dump or whatever when working on my house.


I prefer sport coupes, but as I age I am realizing that with some medical issues related to old injuries, sport coupes are no longer comfortable. As a matter of fact, I spent last weekend at the L.A. Auto Show looking at full size sedans and mid sized hybrid sedans.. Even commented to my wife that I am turning into my father. Dad owned a lot of sports cars and coupes until he reached my age, then settled for a full size sedan ('85 Crown Victoria) and that was the last car he owned before he passed in 2001.

I won't ever consider another American car, maybe a truck if I feel the need for a full sized truck again (which I doubt), but the last 5 vehicles prior to my Lexus, were 3 GMs, 1 Ford, and 1 Chrysler, and they all suffered from major issues, and spent more than an acceptable amount of time at the dealer for warranty issues, I can't in good conscious waste my money them any longer, Even at the auto show, I barely glanced at them, didn't go to the Ford or Chrysler sections at all, and only looked at the Corvette in the GM section.

Full Size Sedan is a misnomer for the most part, the only true full size sedans are in the $80 - $100K range, LS460/500, S-Class, Caddy CT-6, 7-Series, A8, G90, etc.. Everything else, including the Avalon, ES/GS, RLX, are not true full size sedans, they are upper mid-size.
The Avalon really offers nothing over the Camry except 5 inches in length, 1 inch in width, and .2 inches in height, How does Toyota even justify calling the Avalon a "full size" sedan when the cargo space is a mere .6 cubic feet more than the Camry and a mere 1.3 inches more rear leg room? At least the LS460 offers almost 3 more cubic feet and almost 5 inches more rear leg room over the Avalon and 3.6 cubes over the Camry.. Same when you compare the TLX and the RLX, there is 1/2 cubic foot difference in the cargo space, and about 2 inches more leg room in the rear, how do you quantify the RLX as being in the same class as an LS500, Audi A8, S-Class MBZ, etc.. They aren't. and they should not be called "full size" as they are not. Unless you are saying the others are oversized or XL Full size.

While a lot of manufacturers may classify their cars as "Full Size" they are not IMO.

mmarshall

Good post...and I agree with much of what you say. One thing, though, is not quite true. Don't compare TODAY's Ford, GM, and Chrysler-nameplate vehicles with those of the past. The days of classic Detroit lemons are pretty much gone. Buicks, for example, with few exceptions, are near the top of most reliability surveys. Even Chrysler products, near the bottom, are noticeably better than they were 5 to 10 years ago.

mjeds

I'm taking recent vehicles. specifically GM

2005 Chrysler 300 SRT - $29,000 in warranty work in 4 years.
2010 Avalanche - Lemon Law Buy Back
2012 Camaro - Lemon Law Buy Back.

I might grant the Chrysler being 12 years ago, but then again it was owned by Daimler at the time, so one expected a higher level of quality, but nope, same old Chrysler. And I know many people with current Dodge/Chryslers 2014 and newer that have many issues that have similarities to the problems I had 12 years ago, while overall Chrysler may be up trending in quality, at this rate it will be 50 years before they are at the level of Toyota or Honda today. Heck the general contractor I use for work on my home has lemon lawed 2 Dodge Ram HD2500 trucks since 2014 for the same transmission issue.. He is on his third, and only because Dodge swung him such a great deal due to the two previous crapboxes.

As for GM, well fool me once.. as they say..

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

even many decades ago 'full size' 'traditional' sedans weren't the whole market. mustangs, pintos, camaros, chevettes (ugh), and on and on were around and sold in huge numbers.

maybe a relevant question is why did people buy large sedans? well the room for one obviously. next, the longer wheelbase tends to give a smoother ride as bumps don't 'tip' the car as much as a car with a shorter wheelbase. and ride quality tended to be soft compared to whatever else was out there which was basically primitive stiff trucks and sports cars. but with sophisticated suspensions, almost all vehicles can ride nicely, and as far as room, well suvs and cuvs even if often only 'vertically' have lots of room, and loading stuff into the back of an suv with a power liftgate is FAR better than ANY trunk. so the reality is there's little reason to buy a large sedan any longer besides not liking suvs for some reason, or nostalgia.

Aron9000

People bought full size sedans back in the day because it had room for your family and it was seen as status. The bigger and fancier your car, the more of an image of sucess that depicted. Back in the 60's/70's, there was a huge stigma in certain circles of being poor/unsuccessful if you were driving around in a Chevette, Honda, Toyota, Corvair, Pinto, Pacer, etc.

mmarshall

While, of course, other factors do come into play (even on smaller vehicles), in the end, you can't overcome the laws of physics. Wheelbase, track, lower spring rates, lower shock damping, softer tires, less unsprung weight...all of that does, in fact, produce a smoother and more comfortable ride.

Johnhav430

I asked my buddy to start acting his age. If I mention the S Class, he will say he's glad I want to have a personal one-on-one relationship with a German mechanic. They got rid of the Q5 for a Nx200t. They bought a used Versa. He got rid of his BMW convertible to make room. Now, he says he really can't see not driving a SUV, he's over sports cars and sedans (um what were you telling me just 2 summers ago when you went to the BMW performance driving school in SC?). He has owned a LS and also a XJ as well, 4 Runner, Camry, etc., and has had a Navigator L since 2009. He seems to be the perfect example of someone who is not interested in a full-sized sedan...and he is not nice when I bring up the 1994 Roadmaster with the LT1!

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

an older gentleman i know has had 3 avalons in a row (and before that an infiniti sedan, not sure which one), and next he insists he's getting an suv for the easier effort to get in and out.

Toys4RJill

SUV or crossover? Not all SUVs are easier to get into and out of. I would say something in the middle like a Lexus RX is probably the ideal size and height. As for the Avalon, the last generation was IMO the last true full size mainstream car I can think of sold in the North America.