webra

Sulu

This is not a true, apple-to-apple comparison. To fairly compare fuel efficiency of a plug-in hybrid with a normal hybrid, you need to compare both with battery charge at zero so that both get the same opportunity to run the gasoline engine.

Toys4RJill

No doubt the BMW is far superior. The better performance + better fuel economy of the BMW vs the Lexus is proof enough.

Aron9000

That's true until you own it after the warranty. The BMW will eat you out of house and home with stupid repairs, while the Lexus will keep on going with just normal maintenance as specified in the owners manual.

I thought there was once an economical German car on the market, both in terms of gas mileage, cost of repairs, frequency of repairs, the total ownership cost of a VW diesel was pretty damn good IMO, even once you put 100k on it, 150k on it, 200k on it. My aunt has a 2000ish VW Beetle, diesel, 5 speed with about 250k on it, its been a rock solid car for her when she bought it with 75k about 10 years ago. Now with VW in the midst of this huge scandal and disowning its newer diesel models, I really cannot recommend a German car to anybody, unless you are just obsessed with status or horsepower/speed. They might be a decent deal if you trade cars every 2/3 years, IE you don't own a German car out of warranty.

Lurker9

Didn't watch the video, but I have been wondering if the costs of big batteries will come down enough to offset current tax subsidies available to electric/plugin cars. For the average users, I believe the better fuel economy can't be offset by the costs of the big batteries without tax incentives.

Toys4RJill

I have said it before, not everyone is in it for the long haul. Most people do not keep their cars a long long time. Generally speaking, buying any luxury car (aside from the German wagons) is usually a poor decision from a money perspective as luxury cars depreciate so fast. But, if you are buying said Mercedes or BMW because you like the style, features, luxury, power or just to simply make a statement, then I am all for it. That is what they are designed to do. Reliability and keeping it a very long time is not what these manufactures are selling, they know that. All of these luxury cars are designed to extract more money from the customer. Buying a BMW, a buyer has to ask themselves, do I want performance, design, and new tech or do I want to play it safe.

I will say, I am not a fan of leasing cars for the everyday person. But if it were a higher priced luxury car, I don't have an issue as the benefit of being able to get the new technology, new luxury design, new trendy interior materials outweighs keeping the car for a long time.

All that said, BMW and VW have extended warranties for those who want to keep them a while.

My sister traded in her IS250 which cost her $4000 in two big repairs before 60K. She also had warranty issues with the mirrors that were replaced. She got a BMW 3 series, not sure the exact trim but it does have twin turbo 4 I think. She loves it. No looking back to the IS which she now believes was an inferior vehicle. She does lease the 3 series as her work pays for it.

Toys4RJill

Perhaps. IMO, I would pay extra for a plug in option. The idea of making a few short trips on electric power is a great idea. Lexus and Toyota hybrids are a little behind the times. The IS300h has really poor acceleration compared to the 330e

webra

Perhaps the Lexus/German reliability debate is getting too skewed against the Germans? I know of some who feel that Lexus compromises too much in leadership in performance for the so called reliability, or it seemingly decides (dictates) that the performance offered is adequate for the buyer.

As for hybrids, they were once the leaders, but flagships like the GS450h are now potentially overtaken by a 3 series in performance.

I was, however, very impressed by the 'don't read the book by its cover' or similar LC marketing approach....never before have I seen such effort in re-educating potential buyers regarding expectant performance shortfalls.

Is Lexus in some kind of a rut?

Sulu

If a performance hybrid is what you want, then go buy a BMW Hybrid. But let me add this: Hybrids make BAD performance cars; pure electric vehicles may make good performance cars, and simple gas-powered vehicles make good performance cars, but gas- (or diesel-) electric hybrids make VERY BAD performance cars.

To make a fuel-efficient hybrid requires a very fine balance between engine power and electric motor power. To increase power in order to increase performance, you may increase engine power or increase electric motor power.

Increasing engine power increases fuel consumption. Increasing engine power may also mean a larger, heavier engine (which increases fuel consumption).

Increasing electric motor power increases electricity consumption, which requires a higher-capacity (and heavier) battery. Charging a high-capacity battery requires the engine (range extender) to run longer, to charge the battery, increasing fuel consumption.

So, to increase power to allow for a higher-performance hybrid requires changes to the drivetrain that increases fuel consumption and/or increases weight (which increases fuel consumption). There are easier ways to reduce fuel consumption in performance cars; putting a automatic idle-stop system on the engine is one method.

Increasing power in a hybrid is a self-defeating exercise.

coolsaber

Didnt know they produced a Is300H.

Anyways the E-series BMW hybrids are great on paper but terrible on reliability long term. Short term there liveable but issues are more prevalent then say a Lexus, but all are covered under warranty.

In terms of coining performance hybrids, thats something Lexus started to market their Hybrids and I guess later changed marketing direction. In terms of this comparison, i assume this is a fair comparison, since RWD entry level compact luxury cars with electrification. Yes BMW is going to win, since they`re probably using their superior ICE more so to supplement. Plus the chassis is well sorted on the LCI 3 series.

Hybrids are really marketed towards performance with their low end grunt. Top end is probably better off with a ICE. Like say the T8 XC90. But even that, if you punish the pedal, that small battery isnt magically provide you with high performance numbers consistently and then suddenly eco friendly electric only range

Sulu

The IS 300h is not sold in North America.

Performance hybrids do not sell. The first Accord Hybrid (2005 through 2007 model years) with its V6 hybrid did not sell. The GSh does not sell.

Comparing fuel efficiency of a plug-in hybrid with a normal hybrid is not a fair comparison if the plug-in hybrid battery has charge in it. The plug-in hybrid will be running off the battery, not burning any fuel, while the normal hybrid will be burning fuel. The normal hybrid is at a disadvantage from the start of the test run. In this review quoted above, that is likely what occurred -- the BMW Plug-in Hybrid started off with charge in the battery, running off electricity, while the IS 300h would be running with the gasoline engine.

Yes, initial acceleration from stop in a hybrid, with the low-end torque of the electric motor, can be great but the torque is not maintained because the electric motor is not powerful enough and there is not enough capacity in the battery to keep the electric motor running.

A plug-in hybrid will have both a more powerful motor and a higher-capacity battery, so performance will be greater than a normal hybrid, but then, you are pulling around a heavy metal lump in the internal combustion engine range-extender.

If you need the range-extender, fuel consumption will suffer once you run out of battery charge. Fuel consumption will be only slightly better than a normal gasoline-powered car.

If you don't need (or never need) the range-extender, you are unnecessarily pulling around a heavy piece of iron.