Volvo Plans to Go Electric, to Abandon Conventional Car Engine by 2019
07-05-17, 12:50 PM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
They're following the Sears business model. I just got Volvo "suprise points" in my email, take $40,000 off your next purchase of $50,000 or more.
07-05-17, 02:29 PM
#18
Lead Lap
Their current XC90 hybrid lists at $105k. At least they have demonstrated they have the ability to build an affordable hybrid vehicle.
My first 3 vehicles that I bought as a teen were Volvos (junk, but they all had 4 disc brakes and duct tape repaired the front fenders). What a shame to see what this car co. has become, imho.
My first 3 vehicles that I bought as a teen were Volvos (junk, but they all had 4 disc brakes and duct tape repaired the front fenders). What a shame to see what this car co. has become, imho.
Volvos been straight bossing the SUV game from the XC90 2nd gen launch. The sedans however are not selling well. Right now its clear blue skies for them. Yes, they are owned by Geely, but who cares, as for whatever its worth it seems like they`re leaving Volvo alone in the design and QC department (mfg is still in Sweden). Basically with their entire lineup basically all new by then, there gonna be in quite an interesting position. They already are in the modular platform and powertrain game with electrification already inbuilt. I just dont see them selling Tesla killers but more so, making hybrid a standard option rather then a pay to play thing. Its not a bad idea at all, and moves the market forward for companies who still recognize the importance of IC engines.
Reliability is on par with germans but lacking compared to the Japanese offerings. Design meets or exceeds. NVH is where I fault them since they insist on sticking to I4s
07-05-17, 04:06 PM
#19
Pole Position
Are you sure you are not confusing the ultra supreme version of the XC90 which is designed to be a 2 seater limo on wheels version of the XC90 platform to regular plain jane XC90 PHEV which starts at $67k?
Volvos been straight bossing the SUV game from the XC90 2nd gen launch. The sedans however are not selling well. Right now its clear blue skies for them. Yes, they are owned by Geely, but who cares, as for whatever its worth it seems like they`re leaving Volvo alone in the design and QC department (mfg is still in Sweden). Basically with their entire lineup basically all new by then, there gonna be in quite an interesting position. They already are in the modular platform and powertrain game with electrification already inbuilt. I just dont see them selling Tesla killers but more so, making hybrid a standard option rather then a pay to play thing. Its not a bad idea at all, and moves the market forward for companies who still recognize the importance of IC engines.
Reliability is on par with germans but lacking compared to the Japanese offerings. Design meets or exceeds. NVH is where I fault them since they insist on sticking to I4s
Volvos been straight bossing the SUV game from the XC90 2nd gen launch. The sedans however are not selling well. Right now its clear blue skies for them. Yes, they are owned by Geely, but who cares, as for whatever its worth it seems like they`re leaving Volvo alone in the design and QC department (mfg is still in Sweden). Basically with their entire lineup basically all new by then, there gonna be in quite an interesting position. They already are in the modular platform and powertrain game with electrification already inbuilt. I just dont see them selling Tesla killers but more so, making hybrid a standard option rather then a pay to play thing. Its not a bad idea at all, and moves the market forward for companies who still recognize the importance of IC engines.
Reliability is on par with germans but lacking compared to the Japanese offerings. Design meets or exceeds. NVH is where I fault them since they insist on sticking to I4s
Also whole hybrid thing doesn't surprise here, they are Scandinavian after all and Scandinavian countries are all-EV market game pioneers. Pricing will be the key to success and so far only Mitsubishi has figured out how to price a proper PHEV SUV.
07-05-17, 04:09 PM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
maybe the chinese owners know something we don't (like what's on the drawing boards and supply chain they have from china).
besides that it's primarily aging hippies that buy volvos plus environmentally 'ambitious' sweden of course, so this strategy makes sense.
and it's a great PR move for current sales for differentiation.
besides that it's primarily aging hippies that buy volvos plus environmentally 'ambitious' sweden of course, so this strategy makes sense.
and it's a great PR move for current sales for differentiation.
07-05-17, 04:10 PM
#21
I'd expect them to maybe have one, maybe two all electric models for 2019, probably using their existing sedan or SUV bodies.
What's more interesting is their shift to go all hybrid in 2019. Right now there is a significant upcharge for their plug in hybrid models. I'm wondering if the base model and trim hybrids will still have the plug in feature, or if that's going to be regulated to only the expensive to trim levels. I really hope they make the plug-in feature standard, as that would be a real game changer. Apparently they've figured out a way to get their cost structure in line to do this, but still I'm kind of wondering if they're going to bump the price up a bit on the all hybrid fleet coming for 2019.
Getting back to electric cars, I can see them really taking off in Europe, where people don't have to drive the vast distances like we do in the US. Especially now that European regulations are starting to turn against diesel, people are sick of 1960's style Los Angeles smog in places like London, Paris, Milan, Berlin, etc. Diesels are a lot cleaner than they used to be, but they pollute a lot when they aren't warmed up. January in some place like Berlin, people are driving 3-4 miles with their diesel, its 20 degrees outside, you can see why they have smog problems. Air pollution is what will be the death knell of diesel, and with Europe really pushing for renewable sources of energy, electric cars are starting to make sense over there.
Anyways, getting back to Volvo, I say the push into electric cars is a good move. They might become pretty common in Europe, but I don't see pure electric cars ever being more than a niche market in the US. Plug in hybrids like Volvo's SUV's and the Chevy Volt, I really think that is where the US market is heading in the next decade.
What's more interesting is their shift to go all hybrid in 2019. Right now there is a significant upcharge for their plug in hybrid models. I'm wondering if the base model and trim hybrids will still have the plug in feature, or if that's going to be regulated to only the expensive to trim levels. I really hope they make the plug-in feature standard, as that would be a real game changer. Apparently they've figured out a way to get their cost structure in line to do this, but still I'm kind of wondering if they're going to bump the price up a bit on the all hybrid fleet coming for 2019.
Getting back to electric cars, I can see them really taking off in Europe, where people don't have to drive the vast distances like we do in the US. Especially now that European regulations are starting to turn against diesel, people are sick of 1960's style Los Angeles smog in places like London, Paris, Milan, Berlin, etc. Diesels are a lot cleaner than they used to be, but they pollute a lot when they aren't warmed up. January in some place like Berlin, people are driving 3-4 miles with their diesel, its 20 degrees outside, you can see why they have smog problems. Air pollution is what will be the death knell of diesel, and with Europe really pushing for renewable sources of energy, electric cars are starting to make sense over there.
Anyways, getting back to Volvo, I say the push into electric cars is a good move. They might become pretty common in Europe, but I don't see pure electric cars ever being more than a niche market in the US. Plug in hybrids like Volvo's SUV's and the Chevy Volt, I really think that is where the US market is heading in the next decade.
Last edited by Aron9000; 07-05-17 at 04:15 PM.
07-05-17, 05:01 PM
#22
Lexus Champion
Volvo's Electric Car Strategy Is Being Badly Misrepresented
“This announcement marks the end of the solely combustion engine-powered car,” Volvo CEO Håkan Samuelsson said today.
“Volvo Cars has stated that it plans to have sold a total of 1 million electrified cars by 2025. When we said it, we meant it. This is how we are going to do it.”
Yet not a single word of that statement delivered a timetable, a path or a strategy to kill off internal-combustion engines.
Instead, it simply said that it would have two new chassis architectures for every car and SUV it will launch from 2019 onwards. These new architectures will support three different electrified powertrains: a gasoline engine with a 48-Volt mild-hybrid system, a plug-in hybrid (PIH) system (with both gasoline and electric motors) and a full battery-electric (BEV) system. The first two levels of electrification would be available in all Volvos, while BEV power will be the high-priced option on only three Volvo-branded cars .
It confirmed five new battery-electric cars - the three from Volvo, plus two high-performance, 500km Polestar cars - would hit its showrooms between 2019 and 2021.
“Volvo Cars has stated that it plans to have sold a total of 1 million electrified cars by 2025. When we said it, we meant it. This is how we are going to do it.”
Yet not a single word of that statement delivered a timetable, a path or a strategy to kill off internal-combustion engines.
Instead, it simply said that it would have two new chassis architectures for every car and SUV it will launch from 2019 onwards. These new architectures will support three different electrified powertrains: a gasoline engine with a 48-Volt mild-hybrid system, a plug-in hybrid (PIH) system (with both gasoline and electric motors) and a full battery-electric (BEV) system. The first two levels of electrification would be available in all Volvos, while BEV power will be the high-priced option on only three Volvo-branded cars .
It confirmed five new battery-electric cars - the three from Volvo, plus two high-performance, 500km Polestar cars - would hit its showrooms between 2019 and 2021.
Volvo’s initial BEV window, from 2019 to 2021, straddles a critical year for the European car industry. In 2020, European will enact EU 7, an enforceable law that will limit the continent’s average new-car CO2 emissions at 95 grams per kilometre. It’s this law, rather than any threat by Tesla’s loss-making, rounding-error volumes, that is driving them all into electrification.
No European carmaker believes it can hit the EU 7 target with internal-combustion engines alone and they’re decreasingly convinced about the after-treatment costs of keeping diesels clean. So electrification is the only game in town.
... Anyone who wants to sell cars in Europe will transfer themselves across to electrification in the 12 months either side of 2020. They have no choice. Any of the major European premium brands launching a BEV next year is likely to be doing so in the hope of avoiding clogged development and production pipelines in 2020 and/or bottle-necked production-cycle changeover windows in 2026-2028.
Now, Volvo’s target is to sell a million electrified cars by 2025, but there’s a lot to be careful of in that wording. “Electrified” doesn’t mean “Electric”, and that’s the biggie. Secondly, it wants to sell a million electrified cars by 2025. That’s a million in total, counting from now, not a million per year. Thirdly, when Samuelsson used the word “solely”, he meant its future internal-combustion engines would be helped by a soothing electrical hand, not be shoved out of the engine bay altogether.
No European carmaker believes it can hit the EU 7 target with internal-combustion engines alone and they’re decreasingly convinced about the after-treatment costs of keeping diesels clean. So electrification is the only game in town.
... Anyone who wants to sell cars in Europe will transfer themselves across to electrification in the 12 months either side of 2020. They have no choice. Any of the major European premium brands launching a BEV next year is likely to be doing so in the hope of avoiding clogged development and production pipelines in 2020 and/or bottle-necked production-cycle changeover windows in 2026-2028.
Now, Volvo’s target is to sell a million electrified cars by 2025, but there’s a lot to be careful of in that wording. “Electrified” doesn’t mean “Electric”, and that’s the biggie. Secondly, it wants to sell a million electrified cars by 2025. That’s a million in total, counting from now, not a million per year. Thirdly, when Samuelsson used the word “solely”, he meant its future internal-combustion engines would be helped by a soothing electrical hand, not be shoved out of the engine bay altogether.
Even the plug-in hybrid isn’t necessarily all-new technology. It’s a development of the 400-Volt system it already uses in its 90-series models, though Volvo prefers to call it a “twin engine” rather than a plug-in hybrid.
... Samuelsson himself wouldn’t be drawn on what the sales split would be between the “new” Volvo’s mild-hybrid, plug-in hybrid and BEV powertrains, much less when Volvo’s last internal-combustion engine would roll out of a factory.
Instead he diverted, suggesting the timing of the death of the internal-combustion engine would be entirely “up to the customer to decide”.
... Samuelsson himself wouldn’t be drawn on what the sales split would be between the “new” Volvo’s mild-hybrid, plug-in hybrid and BEV powertrains, much less when Volvo’s last internal-combustion engine would roll out of a factory.
Instead he diverted, suggesting the timing of the death of the internal-combustion engine would be entirely “up to the customer to decide”.
Volvo has two different sizes of scalable chassis architecture to electrify its next-generation cars: the scalable product architecture (SPA) and the compact modular architecture (CMA). They’re both designed to be built in shorter and longer wheelbases and widths, taller for SUVs, lower for sedans, and to swallow different sizes of battery packs and drive systems, but the volume end, the lower-priced end, will use 48-Volts in concert with internal combustion engines.
A typical 48-Volt system takes the energy generated during braking and turns it into electrical power, which it punches in to the engine via a belt-driven motor-generator. The motor-generator usually replaces the traditional starter motor and while it won’t push the car alone, it lends the internal-combustion engine a helping hand in moments of high-fuel consumption.
The layout is not new (hence “typical”). General Motors did it with Saturn back in 2007, while Honda replaced the torque converter on the 1999 Insight with an electric motor, but both did it without the benefits of 48 Volts.
A typical 48-Volt system takes the energy generated during braking and turns it into electrical power, which it punches in to the engine via a belt-driven motor-generator. The motor-generator usually replaces the traditional starter motor and while it won’t push the car alone, it lends the internal-combustion engine a helping hand in moments of high-fuel consumption.
The layout is not new (hence “typical”). General Motors did it with Saturn back in 2007, while Honda replaced the torque converter on the 1999 Insight with an electric motor, but both did it without the benefits of 48 Volts.
It’s not just for premium cars, either. Brand CEO Herbert Diess last month confirmed Volkswagen plans to use a 48-Volt mild-hybrid system in its 2018 Golf Mark VIII. Renault goes one better, offering the system today on the Euro-focused Scenic people mover.
Both Volvo and Volkswagen insist the system will pull the gasoline engine’s fuel consumption down to at least diesel levels, without its NOx emission problems. It’s also, by some margin, the cheapest of Volvo’s three electrified powertrain systems to build, which is why it expects it to be the most popular, which is hardly incentivizing the death of the internal-combustion engine.
... “Diesel is very important for us reaching the 2020 CO2 levels of 95 grams. Long term, it will get more and more expensive with the after-treatment."
Both Volvo and Volkswagen insist the system will pull the gasoline engine’s fuel consumption down to at least diesel levels, without its NOx emission problems. It’s also, by some margin, the cheapest of Volvo’s three electrified powertrain systems to build, which is why it expects it to be the most popular, which is hardly incentivizing the death of the internal-combustion engine.
... “Diesel is very important for us reaching the 2020 CO2 levels of 95 grams. Long term, it will get more and more expensive with the after-treatment."
07-05-17, 06:43 PM
#23
Lexus Test Driver
maybe the chinese owners know something we don't (like what's on the drawing boards and supply chain they have from china).
besides that it's primarily aging hippies that buy volvos plus environmentally 'ambitious' sweden of course, so this strategy makes sense.
and it's a great PR move for current sales for differentiation.
besides that it's primarily aging hippies that buy volvos plus environmentally 'ambitious' sweden of course, so this strategy makes sense.
and it's a great PR move for current sales for differentiation.
07-05-17, 08:00 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
Going all hybrid- or battery-electric may hurt Volvo's sales in the USA, but new, incoming European emissions regulations for 2020 (lower CO2 / higher fuel economy requirements, and (much) lower NOx and particulate matter emissions which will hurt diesels) are forcing this upon Volvo, and forcing all European automakers to go this route.
Volvo is just too small to offer different drivetrains for one particular market -- North America. It can only afford to offer the same drivetrains worldwide.
Electrifying probably won't hurt -- will probably help -- Volvo in China, though, where it wants to grow sales, and where Volvo's parent Geely is using Volvo's platforms and technology for their other brands.
Volvo is just too small to offer different drivetrains for one particular market -- North America. It can only afford to offer the same drivetrains worldwide.
Electrifying probably won't hurt -- will probably help -- Volvo in China, though, where it wants to grow sales, and where Volvo's parent Geely is using Volvo's platforms and technology for their other brands.
07-05-17, 09:59 PM
#25
Going all hybrid- or battery-electric may hurt Volvo's sales in the USA, but new, incoming European emissions regulations for 2020 (lower CO2 / higher fuel economy requirements, and (much) lower NOx and particulate matter emissions which will hurt diesels) are forcing this upon Volvo, and forcing all European automakers to go this route.
Volvo is just too small to offer different drivetrains for one particular market -- North America. It can only afford to offer the same drivetrains worldwide.
Electrifying probably won't hurt -- will probably help -- Volvo in China, though, where it wants to grow sales, and where Volvo's parent Geely is using Volvo's platforms and technology for their other brands.
Volvo is just too small to offer different drivetrains for one particular market -- North America. It can only afford to offer the same drivetrains worldwide.
Electrifying probably won't hurt -- will probably help -- Volvo in China, though, where it wants to grow sales, and where Volvo's parent Geely is using Volvo's platforms and technology for their other brands.
07-06-17, 04:17 AM
#26
Pole Position
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Volvo won´t go full electric in a long while for sure. Volvos home market Sweden ( and one of the most important of course ) is a country with great distances ( 2000 km or 1200 miles ) from north to south. There is no infrastructure for eletrical superchargers today . 60-70% of Sweden looks more or less like northen Canada. Many people lives in main cities ( like everywhere else ) but I would say that at least 40-50% visits remote areas every now and then.
They will have an "electric engine in every car," as they stated . In reality small city cars with full electric drivetrain and then hybrids or mild hybrids as other options. Just like Toyota, Audi , VW and BMW already has today. Nothing too exciting in my opinion, more like doing like everyone else here in EU.
They will have an "electric engine in every car," as they stated . In reality small city cars with full electric drivetrain and then hybrids or mild hybrids as other options. Just like Toyota, Audi , VW and BMW already has today. Nothing too exciting in my opinion, more like doing like everyone else here in EU.
07-06-17, 04:35 AM
#27
Lexus Test Driver
I've also heard that the average Chinese buyer(even luxury car buyers) is a lot more concerned with efficiency and engine displacement(they tax by displacement in China) than performance. Which going all hybrid with small displacement engines in big cars/SUVs would make sense for the Chinese market.
I'm not so sure if Volvo can pull off the efficiency angle though, that's mainly been a Toyota thing. All the Volvo plugin hybrids are designed for power, more like the GS450h and RX450h, rather than having fuel sipping powertrains like the ES300h and Camry hybrid. The 48V mild hybrid system is so mild, it might not be worth the cost - it's just combining engine start-stop with a larger battery that can run AC and electricals.
Volvo might lose US sales by offering only four cylinder engines but they could capture a big chunk of the European SUV market with a cheaper, more efficient hybrid variant, aside from the pricy T8. Diesel is as good as dead with higher fuel prices and more stringent annual inspections; some cities are even banning diesel cars from city centers. VW sees the writing on the wall for diesel, Volvo too, Toyota/Lexus are profiting from all this while Ford and GM Europe seem to be clueless about electrification.
What really makes me curious is the amount of hybrid hate on here. Why all the bashing?
Last edited by chromedome; 07-06-17 at 04:39 AM.
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