2019 Toyota Supra
12-28-18, 10:55 AM
#376
Lead Lap
Wow they really taking the LFA approach on this reveal. Hopefully its worth it. at least the motor should leave those who crave more power in the 86 happy
12-28-18, 02:20 PM
#377
Lexus Fanatic
Doug Demuro finally reviewed a last gen Supra, this new design does not hold a candle to its looks unless something drastic changes from the camo cars rolling around.
12-28-18, 03:17 PM
#378
Lexus Test Driver
I hope it doesn't look like that but from the camo cars running around I have not seen any angles where it looks good, stance is just all wrong and makes it look homely and downscale.
Doug Demuro finally reviewed a last gen Supra, this new design does not hold a candle to its looks unless something drastic changes from the camo cars rolling around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwKAS9vQq90
Doug Demuro finally reviewed a last gen Supra, this new design does not hold a candle to its looks unless something drastic changes from the camo cars rolling around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwKAS9vQq90
I wish they just took The MKIV design and left it the way it is.
Similar what Porsche does with 911, Jeep with Wrangler etc.
Why change something that isn’t broken?
The interior of MKIV was so cool as well with the driver oriented dash.
12-28-18, 08:06 PM
#379
Lexus Champion
Today's 911 is a much different car than what the 90s Porsches were. The body shape is what you're talking about and that evolved over decades, starting with the 356 Speedster. You obviously know the outrage when Porsche went to liquid cooled engines and changed the handling traits, or even went with AWD? That was to cater to the market. Why else would Porsche have ventured into the 944, 928? And nowadays - the established Boxster and Cayman? Those two were seen at one time as "chick" versions of the 911.
Why change something that isn’t broken?
Toyota is not that same company that it was back then. If all it took was to preserve a MKIV in a museum and then re-do it for 2019, that would be easy. Who is going to buy those?
People are not going to line up to buy a Supra at a car dealership. They never did. Acura did a much better job with that first NSX. They imitated a Ferrari and made sure to let you know you were driving an Acura and not a Honda, even though the tech underneath was Honda VTEC all the way.
The Supra is just a halo vehicle. Look at this way: buy a BMW coupe with a Supra name.
As far as the Wrangler: that's another decades old established name brand. It's a completely different vehicle, so much so that it's now a family wagon. More comfortable, smoother, all sorts of fancy options that no Jeep purist would even dream about. You didn't buy a Wrangler for the family shopping trip to the mall back then. These days you do - because Jeep watered it down while still keeping the edgy trail options around.
12-28-18, 08:20 PM
#380
Today's 911 is a much different car than what the 90s Porsches were. The body shape is what you're talking about and that evolved over decades, starting with the 356 Speedster. You obviously know the outrage when Porsche went to liquid cooled engines and changed the handling traits, or even went with AWD? That was to cater to the market. Why else would Porsche have ventured into the 944, 928? And nowadays - the established Boxster and Cayman? Those two were seen at one time as "chick" versions of the 911.
Because that Supra priced itself out of the market and it challenged established high end marquis brands, yet it had no luxury cachet. You can't sell a Toyota at those prices unless you're appealing to a very narrow market niche. Toyota knows that and hence, this Supra. It's not 25 years ago when you could throw massive amounts of money at a niche market.
Toyota is not that same company that it was back then. If all it took was to preserve a MKIV in a museum and then re-do it for 2019, that would be easy. Who is going to buy those?
People are not going to line up to buy a Supra at a car dealership. They never did. Acura did a much better job with that first NSX. They imitated a Ferrari and made sure to let you know you were driving an Acura and not a Honda, even though the tech underneath was Honda VTEC all the way.
The Supra is just a halo vehicle. Look at this way: buy a BMW coupe with a Supra name.
As far as the Wrangler: that's another decades old established name brand. It's a completely different vehicle, so much so that it's now a family wagon. More comfortable, smoother, all sorts of fancy options that no Jeep purist would even dream about. You didn't buy a Wrangler for the family shopping trip to the mall back then. These days you do - because Jeep watered it down while still keeping the edgy trail options around.
Because that Supra priced itself out of the market and it challenged established high end marquis brands, yet it had no luxury cachet. You can't sell a Toyota at those prices unless you're appealing to a very narrow market niche. Toyota knows that and hence, this Supra. It's not 25 years ago when you could throw massive amounts of money at a niche market.
Toyota is not that same company that it was back then. If all it took was to preserve a MKIV in a museum and then re-do it for 2019, that would be easy. Who is going to buy those?
People are not going to line up to buy a Supra at a car dealership. They never did. Acura did a much better job with that first NSX. They imitated a Ferrari and made sure to let you know you were driving an Acura and not a Honda, even though the tech underneath was Honda VTEC all the way.
The Supra is just a halo vehicle. Look at this way: buy a BMW coupe with a Supra name.
As far as the Wrangler: that's another decades old established name brand. It's a completely different vehicle, so much so that it's now a family wagon. More comfortable, smoother, all sorts of fancy options that no Jeep purist would even dream about. You didn't buy a Wrangler for the family shopping trip to the mall back then. These days you do - because Jeep watered it down while still keeping the edgy trail options around.
12-28-18, 08:24 PM
#381
MattyG is right-- Toyota is a different company today than it was in the 90's and the looks of the MKIV vs the MKV have to do with so many factors. Crash standards, emissions standards, fuel economy standards, safety architectures, etc. You cannot just dust off the MKIV platform let alone the last JDM 2005 2JZGTE VVT-i engine and put it back into production. Getrag has totally cut its ties with Toyota and does not produce V160 6-speed parts any longer.
To bring a pure RWD I6 turbo Supra back in 2019's EV and autonomous-car intensive R&D reality and not make it horrendously expensive there had to be some creative approach to doing this. Toyota wasn't going to build their own I-6 engine from scratch for use in only one vehicle that will only sell so many units every month. But... if they went to some other company that makes them and re-engineered a lot of an existing I-6 engine to suit their performance and durability targets... then not nearly as much money is spent.
It's going to be a fair bit more than just a BMW coupe chassis with a Supra name. It will depend on the trim level one purchases which will depend on availability and allocation of the more limited high performance trim levels (and I am not simply referring to what will be the more common standard I6 turbo trim levels) but this isn't going to be a carbon copy of an near identical BMW.
Further, it's more like BMW and Toyota BOTH designed and haggled over a chassis design from scratch that they would both ultimately use differently. The interiors aren't going to be very different from each other so there is that.
And while they both make use of a common BMW B58 I6 turbo engine architecture... Toyota is rumored to be going a bit further with theirs. But again, this depends on the trim level one buys.
The cars as spec'd at launch are not going to be the only variants ever released.
As far as the look of the new ones from the recent image leak, those appear to be renderings (albeit official ones) rather than actual photographs but personally I like the looks.
To bring a pure RWD I6 turbo Supra back in 2019's EV and autonomous-car intensive R&D reality and not make it horrendously expensive there had to be some creative approach to doing this. Toyota wasn't going to build their own I-6 engine from scratch for use in only one vehicle that will only sell so many units every month. But... if they went to some other company that makes them and re-engineered a lot of an existing I-6 engine to suit their performance and durability targets... then not nearly as much money is spent.
It's going to be a fair bit more than just a BMW coupe chassis with a Supra name. It will depend on the trim level one purchases which will depend on availability and allocation of the more limited high performance trim levels (and I am not simply referring to what will be the more common standard I6 turbo trim levels) but this isn't going to be a carbon copy of an near identical BMW.
Further, it's more like BMW and Toyota BOTH designed and haggled over a chassis design from scratch that they would both ultimately use differently. The interiors aren't going to be very different from each other so there is that.
And while they both make use of a common BMW B58 I6 turbo engine architecture... Toyota is rumored to be going a bit further with theirs. But again, this depends on the trim level one buys.
The cars as spec'd at launch are not going to be the only variants ever released.
As far as the look of the new ones from the recent image leak, those appear to be renderings (albeit official ones) rather than actual photographs but personally I like the looks.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 12-28-18 at 08:37 PM.
12-28-18, 08:33 PM
#382
Lexus Fanatic
Unfortunately thats the real thing.
I wish they just took The MKIV design and left it the way it is.
Similar what Porsche does with 911, Jeep with Wrangler etc.
Why change something that isn’t broken?
The interior of MKIV was so cool as well with the driver oriented dash.
12-29-18, 12:22 PM
#383
Driver School Candidate
Yeah I know, but most car makers move on when there is a better alternative.
BMW and inline6's are now 4's, V8's are now blownV6's.
Porshe went water cooled, included a turbo on their non-turbo model etc...
Toyota being in racing and with a sky high budget, I would have assumed they would've made their legendary Supra to the current standards.
I'm actually NOT complaining, just wondering/thinking out loud.
I love inline6's. Maybe no the best in terms of power and weight distribution but once they get going there's something "substantial" about them. For ex, my old MB 300SE was a dog off the line, but once up to 80mph it was surprisingly responsive.
Anyway, I think the new Supra will rock. I just hope they use Toyota valve cover gaskets, the ones BMW makes are ehem,,, nerf? or chewing gum
BMW and inline6's are now 4's, V8's are now blownV6's.
Porshe went water cooled, included a turbo on their non-turbo model etc...
Toyota being in racing and with a sky high budget, I would have assumed they would've made their legendary Supra to the current standards.
I'm actually NOT complaining, just wondering/thinking out loud.
I love inline6's. Maybe no the best in terms of power and weight distribution but once they get going there's something "substantial" about them. For ex, my old MB 300SE was a dog off the line, but once up to 80mph it was surprisingly responsive.
Anyway, I think the new Supra will rock. I just hope they use Toyota valve cover gaskets, the ones BMW makes are ehem,,, nerf? or chewing gum
12-29-18, 08:23 PM
#384
Lexus Test Driver
Yeah I know, but most car makers move on when there is a better alternative.
BMW and inline6's are now 4's, V8's are now blownV6's.
Porshe went water cooled, included a turbo on their non-turbo model etc...
Toyota being in racing and with a sky high budget, I would have assumed they would've made their legendary Supra to the current standards.
I'm actually NOT complaining, just wondering/thinking out loud.
I love inline6's. Maybe no the best in terms of power and weight distribution but once they get going there's something "substantial" about them. For ex, my old MB 300SE was a dog off the line, but once up to 80mph it was surprisingly responsive.
Anyway, I think the new Supra will rock. I just hope they use Toyota valve cover gaskets, the ones BMW makes are ehem,,, nerf? or chewing gum
BMW and inline6's are now 4's, V8's are now blownV6's.
Porshe went water cooled, included a turbo on their non-turbo model etc...
Toyota being in racing and with a sky high budget, I would have assumed they would've made their legendary Supra to the current standards.
I'm actually NOT complaining, just wondering/thinking out loud.
I love inline6's. Maybe no the best in terms of power and weight distribution but once they get going there's something "substantial" about them. For ex, my old MB 300SE was a dog off the line, but once up to 80mph it was surprisingly responsive.
Anyway, I think the new Supra will rock. I just hope they use Toyota valve cover gaskets, the ones BMW makes are ehem,,, nerf? or chewing gum
Inline 6 will always be superior to a V6.
Mercedes Benz has just released their new Inline 6 engine making crazy power #s and FCA (Fiat/Dodge) will be releasing one soon as well making around 400hp.
Inline 6s are much smoother, more refined, produce less vibration and will make more Power all things being equal.
V6 only benefit is they are smaller and can fit into FWD cars.
BMW has never made any V6.
They are know for inline 6s which they continuously update.
Right now they have the B58 in varios tunes (40i cars and new Supra) and S55 (M2, M3 and M4).
BTW the company does internally produce V6s and have yet been able to build a better engine with that format therefore they stay with inline 6.
Now other manufacturers have also given up on the V6.
I hope that Toyota can make a 3JZ before everything goes EV!
Last edited by RNM GS3; 12-29-18 at 08:30 PM.
12-29-18, 08:54 PM
#385
Lexus Fanatic
NVH used to be a problem with certain early V6 designs (primarily, like on the GM 3.8L, with a 90-degree V-angle), but engineers got a hold on that years ago. I've driven a number of both designs (and owned an in-line 3.0L six in the IS300 I had), and for the most part, can't really tell much difference in refinement between them. You are correct, however, that a V6 is generally more suited for transverse-FWD designs, just as in-lines are more suited for RWD/AWD. In the American market, only one in-line six was ever used transversely/FWD, and that was on the Suzuki Verona...and that was a small-displacement 2.5L, with small cylinder-bores.
12-30-18, 12:58 AM
#386
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
A bmw inline 6 is a jewel of an engine... great feel, response, sound... 
12-30-18, 06:30 AM
#387
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
A bmw inline 6 is a jewel of an engine... great feel, response, sound...
12-30-18, 03:00 PM
#388
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
12-30-18, 04:48 PM
#390
Lexus Fanatic
NVH used to be a problem with certain early V6 designs (primarily, like on the GM 3.8L, with a 90-degree V-angle), but engineers got a hold on that years ago. I've driven a number of both designs (and owned an in-line 3.0L six in the IS300 I had), and for the most part, can't really tell much difference in refinement between them. You are correct, however, that a V6 is generally more suited for transverse-FWD designs, just as in-lines are more suited for RWD/AWD. In the American market, only one in-line six was ever used transversely/FWD, and that was on the Suzuki Verona...and that was a small-displacement 2.5L, with small cylinder-bores.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_SI6_engine
I agree that most modern V6's in most cases are so smooth there is not much if any real difference between them and a inline 6.