Johnhav430

just thought of something.....I felt I got a good deal when I bought the BMW, since there were zero in stock nationwide and most dealers wanted list....we kept a tally on the forum to see how much anyone got for a discount....the mode was $500.

Seeing as the best in 10/06 was $1600, I wanted $1700 lol (list, remember invoice at least then was useless because of the training and MACO tactic--also, remember, some unscrupulous dealers took deposits when there were not only no cars, but no allocations--with an allocation, BMWNA has your name assigned to the order, I don't think Japanese mfgs do this but could be wrong). Of course they said no on a Friday. By Monday, they said can you come in and put a $500 refundable deposit, we'll do $1700. Did it, allocation was changed to me, I logged in online and for most of the time it showed a different car, no sport package, wrong color. Dealer assured me, the web *****, what we see is the real order and it's what you ordered.

In all my diligence, I forgot the oldest one in the book, get them to throw in free mats. So I asked, I forgot to ask you for free mats.....CA goes, don't worry, you get summer and winters for free. I was impressed with the delivery. They didn't have them when I took delivery because the E92 was so new....so they gave me this paper "We Owe" and I came back when they did have mats.

On my dad's Buick purchase, the dealer already had pinstriping, window etching, conveyance fee, and DMV fees (by law they must refund what was not used). He had them take all of these off--no "no haggle" price is going to remove those extraneous fees. Conveyance is usually presented like telecom USF fees--they look official, like done by some govt. authority. Nope, remove them!

SW17LS

Who pays sticker price? Apparently you do, because you want no haggle pricing universally. You're falling into the trap of "what price is the real price", you want to pay a predetermined price from the manufacturer....thats the sticker price!...they're just calling it something else and making up a fake "MSRP" number that is higher that nobody will pay...because the real price has been determined by the manufacturer for you! Its astonishing to me that you don't see that. They're just playing with the numbers to make you think you're getting a deal.

When you negotiate your own deal, you're comparing offers from competitors, those offers are based on those competitors supply and demand and their desire to do the deal, and with a little effort you come to a price that is really market driven and you can be confident its a good price. Its not an "artificial good looking price".

They are playing you guys for fools, and you're lapping it up.

Its mostly a joke, it was when I bought the GS. That was a somewhat difficult negotiation with the lease rates, the dealer tried really hard to inflate the money factor and I wouldn't accept it, was out to the car to head to Alexandria who was going to do the deal at the retail MF (they didn't have the exact car I wanted) and they came out and got me and relented. They delivered the car with a 1/4 tank and I had to point it out to them. Wasn't deliberate, they just forgot.

The time where I really felt the most screwed when I bought a car was my 2014 Jeep. I had bought it through a group buy at Koons in Tysons Corner from the Jeep forum that I posted on. The price on the Jeep was great, much better than I could have gotten anywhere else and I know, because I'd shopped it and asked other dealers to match it and nobody could. I had heard from the forum that they were rough on trades though and financing, but if you went in and paid cash they were no problem. Makes no sense really, as even if you give good prices for the trades and sell the financing at retail, you make more money there than a straight cash deal but who knows.

Anyways, as I expected they marked up the MF significantly on the lease, and the trade offer wasn't great. We sat there at the dealer for 3 hours and negotiated, got them to come up some on the trade, got me traded out of the lease on the 2011, but they WOULD NOT give me the retail MF. I had the data from Chrysler and Ally showing the retail MF and that I knew they were marking it up, they didn't care and acknowledged they were padding it for profit. "The group buy is a bottom deal", yes I know, but you're the ones who authorized the group buy and decided on the pricing, and because you're giving me a good deal on the group buy you feel entitled to literally gouge me on the financing? Remember, the retail rate has profit in it for the dealer too. If I write you a check you get nothing for financing, and you won't accept the retail profit vs nothing, it has to be more?

I even tried to get them to throw in a set of rubber mats and the guy looked at me like I asked him to give me his testacles. He couldn't believe "I would be so petty"... when they were admittedly screwing me on the lease just for accepting their offered no haggle price. I went ahead and did it, because with the group buy even at the inflated rate the lease was cheaper than it would have been at the retail rate, but it seriously killed me a little to do it. Only time I have ever destroyed a dealer on the survey.

RNM GS3

Honestly with sites like Edmunds if you cant negotiate a great deal in 10min of research then nothing will help.

On my recent Legacy purchase - I used cars.com to locate dealers that had the Exact spec I wanted in stock.
Then I went on Edmunds to find Lease program for that month and invoice on my exact car. Used lease calculator to determine what my lease price should be. All this takes 5min.
Then I emailed the dealers asking them the best price with my provided lease terms.
Never give them your phone #. Hour later or less you have pricing from internet department. You compare it to your calculation and even if its on target, I still negotiate down further. Very easy imo and I enjoy it lol.

mmarshall

No. Incorrect. No-haggle prices are usually nowhere near sticker. And I never said I wanted it universally. I said I liked the idea, and I'm for it, but, for those who want to play the part of a Middle Eastern bazzar, let them find a shop that will go that route. To each his or her own.


The true price is supply and demand. Manufacturers can set sticker prices (or no-dicker price) wherever they want, but if the public doesn't want to pay it, it won't sell. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I do not agree that discount, no-haggle prices are "sticker prices" in the sense that you are using the term.

Also, at big, crowded dealerships (chains like Koons, Fitzgerald, Rosenthal, Brown's, Ted Britt, and others are good examples) they don't have time to sit around and argue over prices any more than a lot of customers do. For them, time is money....just as it with with many of us, though, of course, I'm retired and don't have to deal with the daily rat-race.

Also, Steve, from what you tell us at least, you usually deal in leases instead of outright purchases, so much of this probably doesn't (or won't) even affect you in the first place.



Here's a good article, BTW, on the subject from KBB, an impartial organization.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the...ds/2100004171/

Lexus is expanding its one-price, no negotiation selling plan to several other dealers in an effort to make the buying process faster and less stressful. Called Lexus Plus, 13 dealers have adopted or are in the process of adopting no haggle selling for new and used vehicles as well as service, parts and accessories. An additional six or seven may be operational by the end of the year.

“The car buying process has always been a little bit of a mystery and buyers walk out of the store not knowing whether they got a good deal or not,” said Greg Kitzens, Lexus general manager of future initiatives, global and dealer marketing. “But they seem to be very comfortable with Lexus Plus, knowing that they paid the same as the neighbor next door or the person that followed them in the door behind them.”

Dealers offering Lexus Plus post the car’s price on a large card attached to the car’s window. It lists the sticker price, rebate (if offered) and the Lexus Plus price that includes the discount offered by the dealer.

“All of the research we did kind of let us to believe our customers want a more streamline, a more transparent process just like they are used to when buying other goods and services,” Kitzens said.

Survey-driven program

Lexus Plus addresses surveys conducted by the auto industry that have shown shoppers hate the car-buying experience. Lexus Plus eliminates the back and forth negotiating between the sales person and the buyer, the potential anxiety, frustration and possible anger that might result during a buying transaction. One-price, no negotiation, sometimes called “no dicker sticker” selling is not new. Numerous dealers have tried that strategy over the past decades as well as the now defunct Saturn brand.

With Lexus Plus, the buyer deals with one sales associate who is trained to handle the entire process from the moment the person is greeted at the door through the financing process and right up to the instant the car is delivered and keys handed over. Lexus Plus aims to slash the time it takes to purchase or lease a vehicle by 1 to 2 hours. Since the buyer deals with one person at the sales associate level several layers of management are eliminated such as the desk, sales, finance and used car managers.

“You take some of those layers out of the process and you give more responsibility, more authority to that sales person because it is not about the back and forth with the desk or the sales manager over the price. They know the price,” Kitzens said.

Also: Kelley Blue Book Best Buy Awards of 2017

Standardized pricing

A benefit for the dealer is that it allows them to have standardized pricing: “It is not about going to war with each individual customer about the price of the vehicle and how much cross profit,” he said. However, there is a tradeoff. While Lexus Plus speeds up the buying process, cars purchased under the program likely will not be offered with the lowest price available for that model. A traditional dealer, one that negotiates on price, may have room to offer a better deal.

“We have had examples of people coming in who absolutely feel like they need to negotiate. Unfortunately we don’t sell to those people” with Lexus Plus, Kitzens said. However, “there are some on the fringe that once you explain the pricing strategy they kind of nod their head and kind of get it. The majority of people don’t like the back and forth. They don’t necessarily have to be affluent. They just want a smoother, streamlined transparency. I think that is the biggest issue.”

So far responses from customers purchasing or leasing their car through Lexus Plus have been positive. “We have this question on our survey, would you recommend this dealer to somebody else for service or sales? We are seeing a significant lift in those scores,” Kitzens said.

Lexus Plus was launched last year at 11 dealerships that volunteered to be part of the new program. One of the original points in Mission Viejo, Calif., dropped out of the program and returned to the traditional way of selling after the dealership was sold. Three dealers were added earlier this year including JM Lexus, Margate Fla., the largest Lexus dealer in the United States. JM Lexus sold nearly 8,000 new vehicles in 2016.

Also: Class of 2018 – New Cars Ready to Roll

Better customer service

Jim Dunn, vice president and general manager at JM Lexus, said Lexus Plus is about improving the customer experience. Dunne said the intent for adopting Lexus Plus is to be “the very, very best dealership in the way we treat our customers. Being No. 1 now to us is no longer enough. We want to raise the bar and that’s the right thing to do.”

Generally speaking, he said buyers have two complaints: Why does it take so long to buy or lease a vehicle, and why do they have to talk to so many people during the process such as the sales and finance managers?

Dunn believes once Lexus Plus is fully operational at the dealership, the time it takes for a transaction to be conducted will be chopped from about 3.5 hours today to 1.5 to 2 hours in the future. The dealership has just started to transition to Lexus Plus, a transition that could take six to 12 months to fully implement across all departments.

Although the average transaction takes about 3.5 hours to complete, it’s not usual for it to take even longer during the dealership’s busy months, October, November, December and January, Dunn noted.

“People are backed up. I mean they could be here for 5 hours,” Dunn said. “I hear customers say they rather do something else than go through the process of buying a car. We are listening to that now. It is important that we respect their time. Time is a customer’s most important asset. It is time for us [as dealers] to respect that.”

As for the future, the 237-dealer strong luxury division is committed to Lexus Plus and expects a higher number of participants in the coming years.

“I think once we begin to reach kind of critical mass, this is going to start catching on especially if we start to see some of the markets go for it,” Kitzens said. “We have some smaller markets with two and three dealers. If we get a couple of dealers in a (small) market going Lexus Plus that third dealer may just fall in line.”

mmarshall

Some of those packages are indeed B.S.....but some may actually be worth considering. If you live in an area where roads are in crappy shape, or full of objects, like in construction areas, that can puncture your tire, a road-hazard tire/wheel package may be worthwhile. But, I agree....the majority of that after-sale/finance-office stuff is just extra profit for the dealership. Most of those I shop with, most of the time, turn most of them down.

mmarshall

I agree one's money is valuable....but more negotiation is no guaranteee of a lower price. The dealer is either willing to sell at a price you want to pay, or is not. And even if a salesperson accepts the deal, the manager may not.

That right there, IMO, is part of the problem...having to have managers approve each deal. If the man or woman behind the sales-deal is going to have to approve each individual deal, then why hire and train sales-people in the first-place? Let the managers themselves make the deals.....instead of having the salespeople constantly running back and forth between the manager's desk and where you are sitting. That's the part of it that irks me the most.

Toys4RJill

It is pretty interesting that Lexus is expanding this program. Looks to me that some dealers are finding it worthwhile. I said it before, most people in reality "want" a no haggle experience while they along "think" they want or are good at negotiating. When I first started purchasing Toyota vehicles way back in the early 80s, I always found it very difficult to negotiate price or get the dealer to move off a price point, not until the mid 2000's did I find more flexible prices with Toyota and Lexus. Today with the internet and vastly more information available to consumers, it is easier than ever to get the price brought down.

With the above said, it has been ingrained in American Society to deal and negotiate car prices. Regardless of anyone's spin or rebuttal, no haggle brands like Saturn and Scion both failed. Toyota Canada also tried no-haggle in some parts of Canada about 15 years ago and failed. If Lexus went to a nationwide no haggle system, they will fail as the prices of cars will just increase and people will not buy.

As for me, I kinda of see value in the system. I bought by last few cars through a buying agency where I pay $50 and the invoice, paid price, and MSRP are all displayed and a pre-set price was already done. Everything is transparent and no added items can be offered that are not a warranty or dealer installed accessory. Just to make sure I did my due diligence, I tried to negotiate somewhere else, they were consistently more and they more added items at first. I then said this was the price I was paying elsewhere and both places would not match.

Its good to see Lexus offer it for those who want it. But its also nice that the traditional method still dominates.

mmarshall

It is not a spin to say that Saturn and Scion folded because of product, not pricing-strategy. Saturn was a true success-story in their first ten years, with the plastic-bodied S-Class compacts (I owned one of them myself). They blew it after 2000, by trying to make the division too mainstream-GM (in effect, a replacement for Oldsmobile), and the public simply didn't accept it.

Just out of curiosity....did you fully-negotiate the price of your Corolla, or buy it no-haggle-discount style? Or is that none of our business? (some people prefer to keep their business dealings private, and there's no problem with me if you would rather not divulge that). I myself tend to discuss some things....and keep others private.

swajames

For those that do lease, negotiation on price is just as important as it is if you were negotiating an outright purchase. The residual value is typically a percentage of MSRP and is used calculate your base rent over the lease term - if you lower the purchase price, you lower the base rent as the residual value doesn't change as you negotiate down from MSRP. A "no haggle" price which is higher than you could otherwise negotiate will increase your lease payment. Furthermore, dealerships can and do mark up the money factors applied to the base rent from their buy rates if they think they can get away with it. You absolutely do have to focus on both the purchase price and the MF if you are negotiating a lease deal, if you don't do your homework and don't pay attention you are quite simply going to end up with a higher payment for no additional value. Dealers conversationally try to get you to float out your payment tolerance to enable the use of tricks like the "four square" worksheets to obfuscate the details and make the customer focus on payment and not the overall deal. This is why you should never mention how you intend to finance your car and if there will be a payment involved until you've closed out the price discussion and agreed a number.

And it's precisely the persistent use of tricks like those four square worksheets and others mentioned in this very thread which evidence why dealers can't be trusted with no haggle pricing. Sometimes, of course, dealers/manufacturers will offer up genuinely good deals right off the bat. Those aren't the subject of the discussion. The key thing here is being able to tell a good deal from a bad one, and to act accordingly.

SW17LS

You don't get it. If Lexus has their way every Lexus dealer will be no haggle LexusPlus, this is a pilot program. So, if you want a Lexus you will have to submit to this, and all of us will pay more. It is nothing like a Middle Eastern bazaar lol, it involves some emails and phone calls. If you don't want to negotiate, why can't you just go to a no haggle shop and leave the rest of us alone?

You're buying their BS. They're just making up numbers and making you feel like its a deal and you're buying it.

Its well worth a couple hours of my time to save thousands of dollars. If it isn't worth it to somebody...they can pay MSRP or whatever the dealer offers initially.

And like I said, all those dealer chains will negotiate including Fitzgerald.

You think that because you don't understand leasing. The sales price matters a great deal when leasing, you negotiate the vehicles sales price same as you do with a purchase. The residual is based off of the MSRP, but the cost of the lease is the sales price, less the residual value plus the finance charge. So you want the sales price to be as low as possible and the finance charge to be as low as possible. This will affect everybody, including me.

Negotiation ALWAYS guarantees a lower price. If one dealer isn't willing...you move on to the next one. That competition between dealers is what makes it work...if all the dealers have the same prices people will just go to the most convenient dealer...and that competition will be lost which will cause prices to go up...its just common sense.

gs400998

The Lexus PLUS dealership in WI has this "no haggle" price for their LC500

NEW 2018 LEXUS LC 500
LC 500 RWD
MSRP *
$105,938
NEGOTIATION FREE PRICE **
$118,308

gengar

For some reason, the minority (but very vocal minority) refuses to understand that a no-haggle system will more closely resemble today's buying agencies like truecar and not today's dealer MSRP.

SW17LS

Just understand, I pay less than those agencies offer for a car. So again...I am going to have to pay more.

Those deals are okay but I can usually do a couple k better. Sometimes a lot.

mmarshall

Apparently YOU don't get it. Nobody's telling YOU how to bargain...or not bargain. I've said, at least two or three times, let's have shops that do it both ways. Different strokes for different folks.

Lexus may (?) expand the program, sure. But, in your specific case, I don't see Pohanka, Lindsay, Rockville, Silver Spring, and others in the area all going to the same system.

mmarshall

Jill is a businesswoman....with clients. I think she knows what she is doing. If she says that she has had good luck with the system, then we need to take her at her word.

There are also several different kinds of no-haggle systems. They are not all alike. UBS (United Buying Service), for example, is quite different from say, the local Fitzgerald system here in the D.C. area.