Toys4RJill

I think you are missing the point if you are comparing a entry level luxury car to the top end V6 Camry or Accord. Car manufacturers have long figured out that people want certain brands and what thy mean to the person buying the car is why people are willing to pay more. . Most people regardless of the income and class status know that a Mercedes-Benz entry level model has more status than an V6 spec out Toyota Camry.

If you take a look at the latest MT issue. Look up the price, stats, and evaluation of the Cadillac in the comparison. It should be #1 but the better badges get more prestige while offering less.

ragingf80

Technically, the 330i is better balanced with a 49.7/50.3 weight distribution vs the 54/46 of the nose heavy IS.
The 330i weighs 3501 lbs while the IS200t weighs 3798 lbs.

Again, we can read all the comparison tests and compare numbers all day, in the end it's what the driver feel like when they drive the car. Most comparison tests still see the 330i's handling a shadow of it's past, while the IS200t's poor steering is burdened with it's poor weight/power ratio.

How is the transition to a new powertrain hurting the IS200t? Does the IS200t have a new transmission? The manual 330i still has the same edge over the IS200t in those same categories. Also, the 330i has the same ZF8 as the 328i it replaces, albeit with new ratios. I can't find any information on the IS200i transmission, nor can I put my head around why a new powertrain would be an issue. How is the powertrain an issue when even the old engine in the 328i was beating the is200t?

ragingf80

Lexus' biggest draw, to me at least, is luxury and reliability, which is what draws me to the LS. As far as sportiness and being a driving enthusiast, the only cars that are in my price range are the IS and the LC, and the RC-F. The IS is below my threshold as I wanted more than 400hp and I wanted new, so the IS F was out. The LC and RC-F is nice, but I really wanted 4 doors. The M3/4 outperforms the RC-F and the LC despite being $10k less than the LC with the options I wanted. The RC-F wasn't even in the same ballpark. The M3/4 outshines it in every way for me.

Audi hasn't made a 4 door sedan RS4 since the B7, so they had nothing for me. The CTS-V, honestly does nothing for me. It's probably a blast to drive, but I can't picture myself in a Cadillac, no matter how good the car is. The C63 AMG was the runner up, but the styling left much to be desired. Style, sport, 4 doors, driving dynamics, and emotion led me to the M3. It's not the fastest car on the market in this price range, but it was right for me.

When I was in the market for a cheaper car, the 340i M Sport beat out the IS350 F Sport as well for all the same reasons. Brand, sportiness, style and emotion.

EZZ

The is350 is just as fast as a 328/330 and would outhandle it. The is350 f Sport was as fast as a 335 around VIR from c&D and it was down on power. The Is200t is about the same price as a comparatively equipped 320 and is just as slow . Lexus doesn't have a 3350/340 competitor.

ragingf80

the IS350 is $4k more expensive than a 330i, but $3k less than a 340i. Smart.

EZZ

What packages are you comparing?. When I priced all three out, a comparatively equipped 335 was $8k more than loaded IS350 and the 328 was the same price as the Is350.

I agree that the RC F isn't in the same league as the M3. I think sales reflect his.

coolsaber

+1 to brand image and perceived self worth when owning said image. Lexus is competing with a brand cachet of 101 years versus its own 3 decade existence...Its hard to beat that, impossible not but still something of a task.

Plus, BMW and Benz financial are aces in leasing. The amount and quality of their programs just does not compare to Lexus, and for years have left Lexus in the back minding Long term stability and vehicle depreciation lower then most brands (sidenote this quarter onwards, at least BMW Financial has become stoic and relinquishing some of their best offers for reasons unknown)

natnut

Here's some objective handling data : Despite the 335i being lighter and having superior straight line acceleration, the Lexus IS has the best performance on the handling slalom test, carrying the most speed through the slalom : 46.6mph vs the 45mph of the 335i.

It shows that the current generation Lexus IS has the better chassis which is being limited somewhat by its aging powertrain.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

EZZ

That 3700 lb figure is also for the AWD. The website has it wrong as it states the same weight for both the RWD Is200T and the IS300 AWD. My RWD IS350 spec sheet has it listed as 3550. The 3 series and IS aren't that much different in weight.

webra

Thanks Natnut.

From That page I followed a link and found this:

"However, the IS200t remains relatively porky and slow—a 2017 BMW 330i automatic is 229 pounds lighter and more than a second quicker to 60 mph. This Lexus is also thirsty: Our test car’s average fuel economy could only match the EPA’s 22-mpg city estimate, and the 31 mpg it returned on our 200-mile, 75-mph highway loop was 2 mpg below the EPA highway."

Maybe Lexus needs more than just a powertrain transition?

ragingf80

The 335i is the last generation top 3 series. The 340i is the current top 3 series.

ragingf80

If you want to actually compare CURRENT IS and 3 series cars, here's a 330i vs IS200t comparison:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/400693/b...arison-review/


I can't find a legitimate IS350i vs a 340i comparison. But lets take into consideration that the 340i was BMW's answer to the IS350's threat to the 335i's long time throne. The IS350 is a great car, but since the replacement of the 335i one cannot safely say that it is the best in it's class anymore. The IS200t certainly doesn't win any prizes either. If I had to chose between a 330i and an IS200t, the 330i wins, and most publications agree. If I had to choose between a IS350 and a 340i, at least on paper, the 340i is significantly more powerful and way more track worthy (especially with the ZTR package).


Again, personal preferences and driving experience of the individual mean more than these numbers and articles. But, just using facts and reviews and numbers, you cannot, with certainty, conclude that the IS is the best handling and best balanced car in it's class. BMW and Mercedes are still in this game, and they win enough comparison tests to throw doubt to that conclusion.


EDIT:
I'd also like to add that all BMW 3-series frustratingly come with Run Flat Tires, which certainly hurt their performance figures to an extent. This is why I always recommend new buyers get high performance non-run flats and a donut or tire repair kit. Still, even with RFTs, the 330i beats the IS200t and the 335i was only just a few MPH in that slalom test. Note that it did better on the skid pad than the IS350 and out accelerated it as well.

peteharvey

True, the current 3 Series is partly built from aluminium, so is a good deal lighter than the IS, hence the IS only gets the 3 Series on the slalom, but the 3 Series still has the IS' measure on the straights and on the skid pan.

However, overall it is still horses for courses, and each to his own.
Each model has its individual strengths and weaknesses, pros and cons.

BMW uses very different and dedicated platforms for the 3 and 5 Series.
Thus, the 3 Series platform is dedicated for compact cars, hence it is nice and light.
The 5 Series actually uses the old 7 Series platform.

On the other hand, the IS and GS's platform are related, hence the weight of the IS and GS is quite similar, and falls roughly halfway between the 3 Series and 5 Series.

Thus, the end result is that the 2012-19 3 Series is light.
The 2010-17 5 Series is heavy.
With the IS and GS roughly half way in between.

Hence, the lighter 3 Series has the handling edge over the heavier IS, but then the lighter GS has the handling edge over the heavier 5 Series.

Many decades ago, people use to have great Canikon Wars between Canon and Nikon.
Nowadays, ask any professional or enthusiast photographer, and they'll tell you that Canon and Nikon are equals, but in different ways.
Furthermore, when Canon releases a new model, it is best, while when Nikon releases a new model, it is best.

It is the same with cars.
2012-19 3 Series is lighter than 2013-20 IS, but then the 2010-17 5 Series is heavier than 2012-19 GS.
If Lexus had gone BMW's route and used two completely separate platforms for their compact and midsize sedans, then chances are the IS would be very similar in weight to the 3 Series, while the GS would be very similar in weight to the 5 Series.

Below is an example of how badly the just superseded heavyweight 2010-17 5 Series handled; watch the M5 get spanked.
The all new 2017-24 5 Series is obviously much lighter thanks to very high aluminium content...

natnut

Lighter = better handling chassis, heavier=poorer handling

That's overly simplistic. There are other considerations like center of gravity of the chassis and torsional stiffness of the chassis.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the IS is as heavy as it is, compared to the 3 series, is that the IS chassis has more welding and braces to increase torsional rigidity?

Perhaps Lexus sat down to do their sums and decided that the increased stiffness of the IS chassis was important enough to give up a few pounds to the 3 series chassis as overall, chassis rigidity would contribute more to handling than just losing a few pounds.

I mean, slalom is the final summation of a car's dynamic handling, you can't get more definitive than that. And C+D made abundantly clear, Lexus IS > BMW 3 in the slalom.

ragingf80

Again, that's the old 335i that has been replaced by the 340i. C&D still ranks the 3series, Audi A4, and Mercedes C above the IS, which is in 10th place in top overall sports sedans. The other guy is right, this is getting off topic. The thread asks why the C class outsells the IS. it's because the is200t is outperformed by the competition, the is350 can no longer say that it beats the flagship 3 series (340i), brand recognition, heritage, prestige etc. there are reasons people chose the A4, C class, and 3 series over the IS more often than not and the sales figures show this.