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i love the W126, i think the LS is definitely a better car but as to which is more classic, i think you'll have a tough time convincing the mercedes aristocrats that their pride of stuttgart with decades of "heritage, legacy, and pedigree" isn't as "classic" as toyota's first attempt at a mass market full size luxury car. again, LS is definitely a better car but i don't know if it'll ever be considered more "classic" than an S-Class
While neither is a true "collector's car," there is always a market for old Mercs. No Lexus in the history of the brand attracts any classic car aficionados. That's one of the reasons why Akio Toyoda wanted the LC500 to be built; he wanted Lexus to finally have an iconic car that could hold it's own at elite car shows like Pebble Beach.
I see a lot more LS' around than I do W126s or even W140s, that's a testament to their build quality and reliability.
With Benz you're going to see a lot more interest in the SL's vs the SEL's. So it's not surprising to see that a LS400 would not attract any collectible interest either. But I think the original poster's idea about "classic" was merely a reference to older and interesting vehicles we think about from auto history which we associate with a brand.
The LS400 is a much cleaner car in terms of styling profile and its interior design vs the SEL. But in terms of name brand recognition today the Benz will always have that. With MB I think of two doors rather than four doors, with the exception of the 600 SEL's.
I give the styling and interior design edge to Lexus on this one. My vote is with the 2LS - really nice profile and a great looking car all around.
I would say the W126 560SEL. It's an amazing looking car in my opinion. I still want one and I get excited when I see one. It's a pretty menacing car in black too.
The original LS400 and the W140 S Class are great as well. I'm a huge fan of all of the older LS' and S Classes. I think the 04-06 LS430 is a great modern classic since it has a strong resemblance to the W140 S Class but has the reliability of a Lexus. I've driven a lot of Lexus' but my favorite car behind the original SC is the LS430.
I read an interesting article a few weeks ago talking about certain large coupes from the mid-to-late 80's that are rising in popularity (Jaguar, MB, etc). It got me looking at some of the old MB coupes and then stumbling on pics of the 560SEL from the same time period.
So here are my questions- in your opinion, what car has aged better- a 1990 LS400 or 1990 560SEL? Which is more "iconic" of its brand? I tried to find 2 similar pictures for easy comparison of the cars (exterior).
I find the new Mercedes sedans to have a look that (in my opinion) will age more gracefully than the upcoming 2018 LS with its harsh lines and angles. But curious how these cars from almost 30 years ago are perceived by others.
The W126 being the older design and the pinnacle of not only '80s Mercedes-Benz, but of the 1980's global luxury marketplace, would win over the LS 400.
From the day in 1983 when MB finalized styling changes to the mid-cycle facelift W126 due for the 1986 model year, I don't believe that MB designers ever touched that car again (save for 1989 MY interior updates) and focused 100% on the W140 from 1983 to 1992, which got final approval on December 9, 1986.
The LS 400 by comparison also traces its design back to 1986 (like W140), while the overall shape of the W126 even dates back to December 1975 (1983 for MMC). The 1990 LS previewed some visual improvements in aerodynamics over the W126, that MB had already even taken with the incoming and delayed W140.
W126 S-Class Design Approval, December 1975
Toyota F-1 Clay Model September 1986W140 Design Approval; December 9, 1986
The photo you provided though, isn't quite what was sold stateside, as the European-spec LS 400 had some minor differences in extras over the North American market versions and looked "thicker" in some cases.
1989-1992 LS 400 U.S. Specification
1990 560 SEL U.S. Specification
Even so, the idea that the new LS will not "age gracefully" is very much a subjective point and still cannot be proven.
Thus, I do not see where the XF10 and W126 come into this discussion.
We have yet to even see the W222 facelift fully unclothed, which is not to many people's taste.
The new LS was designed to make a strong statement, the same way the W222 was and evoke that of both the Maybach 57 and English ultra-luxury products.
Originally Posted by jrmckinley
OK, fair point- here's a pic of the 1991 S class for those who agree.
Out of curiosity, why don't you think either of them qualify as a classic? Not old enough yet? Maybe a better way to phrase the question is "which design is more classic" or "which design is more timeless"? In essence, which design has held up better over the years? Obviously subjective but that's the point.
Hmm, that is not a "1991 S Class". It's still a W140 and of the same generation that went into production in April 1991, but that is not what MB even offered for sale in 1991 nor had in-house.
In fact, that is even a rare 1993 Daimler-Benz AG internal photo of a 90% final prototype for the 1995 model year S-Class facelift, which had been finalized in the second half of 1992, just as the LS 400 got its own first refresh for '93.
That internal photo keeps being slipped around for some reason, even though no one was able to buy one like that and it's likely mixed up with actual '95 cars.
It likely came from an early photo shoot from early/mid-1993, before they made the last minute changes to the car. This may not be your fault, when too many bot sites keep taking such photography and labeling it incorrectly.
Actual W140 Facelift for 1995 model year (European-spec) in January 1994 Photoshoot in Spain (Exact version that Princess Diana was fatally injured in, 1997)
MY 1995 - 1996 W140 S-Class (Facelift #1), U.S./Canadian-Spec
Very few know that version (black studio car) of the W140 even existed, because it was never available in the marketplace in that exact form.
Some very minor changes were made by MB designers to the W140 refresh before late 1993, ahead of that updated W140 range going on sale in mid-1994 as a rushed '95 model.
The taillights for instance (see my photo above), were smoke-tinted on this 1992/93 prototype, like the then-new C-Class (11/1993) and updated W124 E-Class (8/1993), as opposed to the actual W140 updates later launched in 1994 with amber indicators and other aesthetic changes over both pre-refresh (1991-94) and the prototype in the photo.
The S-Class nomenclature was still that of "600 SEL" in January 1993 on another prototype I saw, before officially switching to "S 600" later that year (1993) for 1994 models (last year for original "pre-facelift" W140).
The 1995 model year S-Class was probably the first quickie facelift by a company of this level, as back then no one did such a thing back then (like BMW will do in spring 2019 for the G11 7).
The W140 at intro was too bulky looking and overpriced to the European media, that numerous changes were made in a rush during the 1 year period from W140 launch in 1991 to approval in 1992, but still took about 2 years to arrive in showrooms in 1994 (exorbitant lead times).
The chief engineer was fired upon 1991 launch for costing them too much, on an already established model line (LS 400 also cost $1 billion).
A reason, why I do not see it as an accurate example of a "1991 S Class". They altered the W140 to look much slimmer like the LS 400 and BMW 7-Series and cut costs to lower prices. Interestingly enough Lexus, did the same thing for the 1995 model in slimming the car's appearance down and cutting costs (strong Yen).
These photos below would be a more accurate representation of 1992 model year S-Class, launched in the U.S. in October 1991. The black example you provided, is a little too new to compare with the first generation LS.
About half of the W140 press introduction photos were photographed during late 1989 and January-February 1991 (sectioned off photo shoots), so they are the same exact time period as the 1990 LS 400.
The first photos of the W140 S-Class were teased on November 16, 1990, not even including some earlier leaks or spy shots running parallel to Toyota's own introduction of the LS 400 in Europe.
U.S. Specification W140 1992 Model Year S-Class, introduced October 1991
I consider these to be the best press photos I've seen of either car, even though the W140 and XF20 LS photos I put up are more 1996-97 than 1990-92. The updated LS 400 (1st gen) was masterful and got ruined by the second generation, which they got correct with the 1997 update, then ruined again with the LS 430 in 2000, fixed with the 2003-06 version, and then topped by the LS 460 in 2006.
1992 - 1994 XF11 LS 400 Facelift European-specification 1997 - 2000 XF21 LS 400 Euro-spec (or MY1998-2000 Facelift)
1996-1998 W140 European-Spec (Left) MY 1997-1999 W140 (Facelift #2) U.S.-Spec (Right) 1996-98 W140 (Euro-spec, bottom) 1997-99 MY S 500 USA
For that matter, I disagree with the idea that classics can only be 2-door vehicles or that the OP was really discussing "collector's cars". It is a disingenuous bias, that also makes me even question Toyoda's so called reasoning over the LC in 2011 (mentioned above). What did he expect when the Lexus brand was only 22 years old back then, with the LFA being 6 months old, and the SC coupe, only being 11-20 years old?
Was the LC not created specifically from May 2010 as a "starting from scratch" replacement for the SC 430 (discontinued July 2010) and an LFA-lite?
Did this car below, not qualify as a classic under their parameters? Well maybe not then, but what about now?
1995 MY Lexus SC 400 (UZZ30), introduced March 1994.
How about this one for that matter? 1967 Toyota 2000GT at Concours d'Elegance that Toyoda complained about "not seeing" any of his cars there, making up excuses as the reason he wanted the LC coupe.
As if Toyoda really thinks about it, that is not why the LC was needed. Toyota has already created some classics. Toyota history is Lexus history, no ifs and buts about it. On another note, I am tired of people (general public and few members) always trying to pine for total and absolute separation of Toyota from Lexus, as there are pioneering accomplishments and/or innovations that Toyota Motor Co. brought to production. Especially in the form of Lexus.
Toyota brand =/= Lexus, but Lexus = Toyota Motor Co. Lexus will never be a company of its own, but always a division of Toyota. Meaning Lexus = fancy Toyota or fancier/high-end product of Toyota Motor Co. It is unnerving to treat that as something to be ashamed of or derogatory statement, when Toyota has a varied 80-year history behind it, that Lexus is also a part of. The Toyota 2000GT and Lexus LFA are both a part of Toyota Motor Co. history.
If Lexus existed in 1967, the 2000GT would likely be the first Lexus sports car and the Land Cruiser 50-Series wagon would not exist as a Toyota (and successive generations 60, 80, 100, 200), being instead called Lexus LX 400, while the Land Cruiser would solely be the FJ40 (or current 70-Series, more akin to Jeep Wrangler today). That Land Cruiser comment was based on Toyota's own perspective in 1995-96 with Lexus.
The Supra as a standalone model would've never seen light of day as a Toyota brand offering if Lexus existed in the '60s. So his griping over not having any classics seems silly, as time was not on Lexus' side in 2011, being a very young brand that didn't get a head start earlier. The LFA will be there one day, just as well the "necessary LC 500".
Even BMW was hardly luxurious (and ultimate) until the 1980s, often touting a history of barely comfort-oriented pre-1970s products as "prestigious", when they did not have such acclaim yet. Jaguar has more of a credit to consistent luxury/exotic "heritage", than BMW in many cases. Mercedes-Benz is much more credible in that aspect, in offering high-end luxury products for decades unlike BMW.
Even in regards to branding/exclusivity issues, what Lexus needs to do foremost is, focus on allowing tech and componentry trickle down from Lexus to Toyota and reduce parallel or "trickle-up" methods in regards to product approach between the two brands.
Save for the Century, they need to be focusing on innovative features that will debut FIRST in high-end Lexus products (not Toyota brand anywhere globally) and be Lexus exclusive, before migrating downwards.
Basically before appearing in JDM Toyotas (Crown, Mark X) or that of other Toyota products. In respect to certain driving technologies, such as the 24-inch (augmented reality patent) heads up display, V35A-FTS engine, and a few other things (on new LS), they have done that correctly.
Special Lexus-only platforms are never going to happen. The only idea that would work, is a specialized version of TNGA for FWD Lexus models like the RX and ES, but that may never happen since TNGA-K will be first utilized on the 2018 Camry and 2019 ES next year. The 2022 RX is up in the air.
Anyway, that's another discussion for a different time. I only brought this up as to why like Lexus = Toyota should not be a bad thing and thus why I believe the SC is a Lexus classic already, plus that of 2000GT being a forerunner to Lexus F.
Back to the LS 400. The first generation in my eyes is a classic, whether I see one in Europe or in the USA. The W126 is very much so and that of the W140 as well. Nein for the W220. Why? They are still specialized vehicles, not made for mass volume consumption (relative), in the way that even the original pony cars were/are (yes, there are more Mustangs than LS 400s).
So why is it that common, old pony cars are allowed to be considered classics, yet over-engineered captains of the industry specimens such as the XF10 LS 400 and W126/40 are not be able to be considered as such? I base this on some commentary I've seen here and in other threads, plus that of contention elsewhere towards the R32 Skyline GT-R being considered a classic.
Is it because they are family-sized sedans they would not be considered as classics? Then what is the 1959 Cadillac Series 62 then? Or that of the 1961 Lincoln Continental? It's one thing to call a 1991 Ford Escort a classic nowadays, but a flagship saloon is a different story.
To me that reeks of serious hypocrisy, mostly based on subjective opinion or stubborn trends that seem to die hard. Not everything "classic" must be from pre-1985 to classify as such, as from what I remember, classic is already considered 25 years or above by law in the USA. It's not as if past Mercedes-Benz and Cadillac sedans weren't modern for their times, especially that many of them introduced several innovations back in the mid-20th century.
I only make this point, based on some commentary I read in here (and elsewhere) that I disagree with, on these somehow not qualifying as classics, due to being too "tech-laden" or "disposable". A classic is a classic, not just sporty niche cars or old metal with engines from the early-mid 1900s, According to U.S. guidelines, the 1993.5 MKIV Supra will soon be able to classify as a classic. If Malaise-era products are worthy of induction (in some cases), then I see no reason why the 1989 LS 400 and 1991 SC 400 are not classics.
Cars from the 1930s were seen as classics by the 1960s, so I find it laughable that a model launched 37 years ago and the other nearly 28 ago, cannot even be seen as such.
Some people get so caught up in a tunnel vision form of nostalgia and forget that time has passed since what was 30-40 years old as a classic, has become 50-60 years old. If people find it necessary to consider R107, W108, and W116 Benzes as collectors, then I do not see how these cannot be.
Do not expect any answers to my "long-winded" questions (as usual), but do hope that it does make some of you think about what constitutes a classic and not just limit the term "classic" to a few niche products favoured by baby boomers and early-mid 20th century mobiles.
It truly is the ultimate mafia car. My friend has a black 98 S420 and it's so intimidating.
The only cars that come close are the LS400, LS430, W126 S Class, and the E38 7 Series.
I'd add the E65 Bangle 7 to that list. In hindsight, once it got refreshed it was truly one of the most handsome large sedans of all time. It had a real presence on the road and you knew it was a 7-series the second you saw one.
The F01 and G11 7ers have been disappointments all around, and that's coming from a BMW guy. They really dropped the ball on the G11 and it's poor sales show for it.
W126 just looks way too dated compared to W140 and 1st gen LS400.
That being said, am I the only one who thinks that 1997 LS400 looked a lot more dated in 2007 vs a 2007 LS in 2017?
I'd argue that cars haven't changed all that much exterior style wise in the past 15 years or so. Go back to the 1990's, there was a revolution in what cars looked like from one model generation to the next. I mean look at a 1990 Buick Park Ave vs a 1991 Buick Park Ave, holy crap. Just to use that as an extreme example.
03-23-17, 08:48 AM
