tex2670

Lexus is going to put the ES up against the 5-Series, the E-Class, the A6, etc? It almost seems like they can't retire the GS--unless they are slotting another similar car to take its place. The ES is not similar.

Mike728

Never meant to imply the ES was going up against those mainstays. For one, those are smaller and more driver orientated.

pman6

an AWD ES going up against the germans is as sad as the Lincoln Continental going up against whatever they were supposedly competing against.
As with the Lincoln, simply giving it more premium materials inside and adding two more drive wheels are not enough. It will suffer the same fate as the Acura RL through overpricing.

I certainly would not pay 50000 for an ES. Most people wouldn't either. And if they tried to compare the transverse engine fwd ES to the 5 and E, they would be laughed at.

If Lexus had a slighly cheaper, but very good looking GS, they could probably get rid of the whole ES lineup.

If anything, the price overlap is between the ES and GS.
with $50k, one must decide whether they want a more loaded ES or a well equipped GS.

Also, I don't know if it has to do with inflation, but within a few short years, the GS msrp has gone up a lot. Less value for the money.

My 2007 GS350 was under $45k msrp. Now you can't even get a v6 for that price. The GS350 starts at $51000.
The 2013 GS350 started around $47000.

When you're over the psychological $50k price point, people probably just say fark it and pay a little more for the Germans.

I imagine german cars now aren't as unreliable as they were 10-15 years ago, so buying japanese for reliability is not a very strong motive anymore, maybe.

UDel

To make the GS more desirable do what they originally did in some areas.

-Give the GS a relatively affordable V8 option with class leading power and performance or close to it.
-Stop pricing the similar sized/optioned GS so much higher then the ES
-Get rid of the lame 4cyl base which is only going to mean buyers will have to pay more for a 6. No need for a overpriced hybrid either
-Give it a better base 6 cylinder with more power and better fuel economy.
-Give it better styling and tone down that front end, the new mmc GS looks terrible and is likely why it is not selling.

If this is true which it very well may be it is a horrible decision. A luxury company needs a mid level sedan, Lexus will be the only luxury company without a mid level offering if they dump the GS and it would be embarrassing. What are they going to do for customers who want a mid level Lexus sedan, tell them to either buy a entry level Avalon based ES or spend over 80K on a big LS. I believe Mercedes and BMW make their biggest sedan profits on the mid level sedans and they are some of the biggest image boosters, they are critical for a luxury lineup and not having one is not a option. The reasoning is even dumber. So they are going to drop the GS because they decided to give the LS a more downmarket 6 cylinder engine? What sense does that make? Lexus sedans sold better when they had a V8 GS and a V8 LS so it is their fault they are using more downmarket engines for both cars. The GS base has a 4cyl so it balances everything out as the LS has no 4cyl. The GS used to have a higher hp engine and more performance then the LS and it did not hurt LS sales at all. Funny thing is the RC coupe and this new LC coupe are not going to sell anywhere near as much as a GS yet they are going to keep or go ahead with those lower sellers and that hideous new small CUV they are planning to put into production is going to be a flop. Dumping the GS or a mid level sedan is not a option for a luxury company especially when Lexus is trying to raise its brand image, make the GS better, give it a affordable V8 option, and stop placing such a premium of it over a similar sized/optioned ES.

SNiiP3R

iTrader: (3)

I really wonder now, if the only reason why Lexus has never introduced the ES in Europe is to see how well the GS would sell without it? Especially in Europe where BMW and Mercedes are dominant. I mean, if you think about it, ES and GS are both available in Canada, United States, Russia, Ukraine, China, Australia, Philippines, basically everywhere except Europe. Maybe the European market was their test ground and the test has failed.

SW17LS

Getting rid of the GS would leave a huge hole in their lineup. ES tops at $50k, LS starts over $80k...they're not going to leave $30,000 worth of buyer unserved. I don't see how the ES can compete in the $60k class...

Vladi

ES was never offered cause Camry project has failed in Europe. No reason to offer souped up version of something that didn't sell. Honestly I don't even remember how Camry was priced over there compared to Avensis. Well cluster mess of Avensis is also getting the boot, it just can't compete against window crank equipped base 3 series and A4s just like Accord couldn't. To be fair it's not the only one, Mazda 6, Mondeo, 508 can't either. I think only Insignia and Octavia are non-premium badge black ink survivors in this segment. Renault is trying something different with Maxima based Talisman, basically you get much midsize sedan for the price of small sedan something like Skoda Superb concept.

SNiiP3R

iTrader: (3)

Yeah but the current ES is based on Avalon, which I don't think was ever offered in Europe before.

SNiiP3R

iTrader: (3)

They could easily make the ES a $60K car, but what would they gain? No one is buying the GS for that money, no one will buy the ES either. Unless they make an LS350 or something, then maybe the whole ES with LS formula will work for them.

coolsaber

The reason the es sells now is low cost and entry and value. If they screw with it by increasing base price good luck moving them awesome numbers. However if they add more variants with more features you essentially can make the es the camry of the lexus without the need of having an additional platform and costs to support.

cancelling the gs is interesting. I knew it was a slow seller but didnt think it was that bad. Plus there essentially cutting the car that gave lexus a second chance

dseag2

Very sad news if it happens, mostly because I owned an '01, '03 and '13 GS. They were all great cars in their own right, and I still see many 2GS's on the road. BMWs, MBs and Audis from those same years... not so much.

During my ownership of the '01 and '03, I would not set foot in a German car dealership because of all the issues and poor service. I owned an '01 Audi A6 4.2, which was a great car but had niggly issues and the service just plain sucked. That brought me back to Lexus. These days I'm not as concerned about owning a German car because even if I do have issues the service departments have gotten much better. They have been FORCED to improve by brands like Lexus and Infiniti. It just makes the selection broader, and if Lexus doesn't introduce a GS that is really compelling compared to the Germans they will not get customers in the showroom. This leaves me scratching my head, because the 4GS F-Sport won many competitions over the German competitors. I guess then it just comes down to brand cache.

MattyG

Well if the rumor proves true and that remains to be confirmed by other sources, then it signals that Lexus is abandoning the mid-size sports sedan market and leaving it to the Genesis G80 and the Kia Stinger on the back end and the Germans on the front end. Maybe they know something.

I don't see too many either in my tiny little burg. Saw an E39 hobby car today because it's been a warm dry couple of days and yesterday an older lady with an E65 whose bank account can afford it. My friend got rid of his E60 last year after getting a quote for $1K to fix the leaky gaskets on a 525. But then again not too many 2GS's either and hardly any 4GS's but their styling doesn't exactly make them attractive.

JDR76

The current GS still sells pretty well when you look at the GS history. We complain about sales in 16 falling off a cliff at 15k-ish sales. Between 08 and 11 the biggest year was around 16k but the rest were something like 3k-7k. There have been 9 years when the GS sold fewer copies than they did in 16. Only 3 times in its history has it hit 30k sales. It's never been a huge seller but let's not pretend the current GS is worse than the past. Sales of the 4GS have been fairly solid. Of the 5 years the 4GS has been on the market, three years were over 22k, one year at 19k, and one at 15k. 2017 is off to a rough start, but GS sales always fall in the second half of the generation.

Carmaker1

Yes, that did almost happen in 2009-10. Thank you SNiiP3R for re-posting this information here, I had stumbled across it on vacation in December and presented it in the thread I created on 5th generation GS on Lexus Enthusiast.

They've very likely suspended it, but it doesn't mean they will outright forget about it. All I care about is releasing this information and seeing how Lexus corporate responds, considering how they were so quick to comment on the Tokyo debut of the LC-F. It has been nearly 3 months since I discovered Japanese language article in MAG-X's February 2017 issue, yet no one has heard much about it until a member on Lexus Enthusiast successfully translated it and then SNiiP3R provided it here,

-Yes, but TNGA-L is not going to the GS (yet). Other TNGA products/applications are coming, which I will send you information about in a PM.

-I agree with that, quite an absurd excuse. If product overlap was such a concern, they should've rethought solely offering the V35A-FTS engine in the petrol 2018 LS and omitting the 2UR-FSE. Even at that, something doesn't fit there.

-I'm not sure why many people assume this, but BMW has never made V6 engines. Only I6 in all 5ers and 7ers since 1972 and 1977 respectively. V12 in 7er since 1987 and V8 since 1992. Only a V10 from 2005-2010.

-I have to wonder how they plan to rectify that new issue.

-One has wonder how much thought was even given to the GS-F in the first place, considering that it doesn't match up well with its competitors and requires deep discounting. The IS-F deserved to see another generation, at very latest mid-cycle (last year), but never got the chance and will not return for another 4-5 years at the very least (based on internal product planning info). It isn't outlandish for the same to happen to the GS-F, due to the GS going on hiatus. All one has to hope this rumour from Mag-X has less relevance as of March 2017 and it was more a matter of reshuffling development focus on the GS programme during 2016. Spring of last year would've been 5GS design freeze, as the 7ES received its design freeze many months ago and got revealed to some staff last year, over 2 years ahead of Job #1 in 2018. That 7ES is very much confirmed, but 5GS concerns me a lot.

Well, the 2019 ES is going to be much more luxurious. The car has been shown to personnel privately since last year (in one gathering at Fuji) and they were astounded by it, I also have come across the development programme code for the 7th generation ES and few other upcoming Lexus models through 2020. Excellent point regarding Toyota logic, but I think we will very much have to take a wait and see approach. Hopefully this tidbit becomes very loud, that Lexus is forced to somewhat officially comment on it, without giving too much away too early.

"M45" has not existed since 2009/10 nor has Infiniti "M" since late 2013. Other than that, very good point. The future of the Q70 is up in the air (new design scrapped, delayed until 2020) and that of the already frozen Q80 production design for 2019, even though I've also heard otherwise regarding the new Infiniti flagship. This has always been a problem, because shockingly enough, save for the 2005-2010 Infiniti M, the Japanese have never really competed in this class. The GS was the lone RWD Japanese offering in this segment from 1997 until 2005 (not including M45 of 2002-04). It is because of this fact, in how Lexus never made the same statement with the GS, that they did with the LS400 in eclipsing their competition. There was nothing novel about the GS in 1993, which probably affects it to this day. It is also why the Equus never did well as a flagship, because it didn't revolutionize its segment, it was simply a bargain and nothing else.

If Lexus does abandon this segment, believe it or not, sales will go to the refreshed Q70 and Genesis G80, plus the prime models of A6, E-Class, and 5-Series.If not even Jaguar XF and Cadillac CT5 (CTS replacement).

Fizzboy7

The GS isn't going anywhere. Every competitor has a GS-class offering, and Lexus needs to fill that slot. And just because it will share a V6 with the LS is no reason whatsoever to cancel one. Just about every other brand out there has engine overlap. Invalid reasoning.

The ES is a bargain luxury sedan, that's why it sells well. It will remain so, and they will not mess with a formula that brings in big sales numbers (read: profits).

If they want to increase GS sales, the side profile needs to be a lot more dynamic. The front is already (over)styled, but the tail could use some spice. Further, they should dump the 4-cylinder model. Adding that engine and charging the same lease price as the previous standard V6 is/was a rip-off. The price should have dropped with the lower horsepower and cheap engine noises, but it did not. In fact, it became higher than the previous V6 lease. Perhaps the public didn't buy that pitch, as I have not.

For what it's worth, I see plenty of new GS's in L.A. More than new A6's, 5-series, and E-classes. The F-Sport model is especially popular with the bling/hip-hop crowd.

I wouldn't pay attention to this "rumor" one bit. It would be a huge marketing mistake not to have a car in that slot.