C&D Rumors for Supra MKV, S-FR (not FR-S) II small RWD concept and turbo Corolla
01-28-17, 11:43 PM
#1
C&D Rumors for Supra MKV, S-FR (not FR-S) II small RWD concept and turbo Corolla
This is welcome news! On the heels of the Lexus LC500 we'll see some more of the Supra MKV and a second generation S-FR concept (which is NOT the FR-S/BRZ but another, smaller, more compact RWD manual 2+2 car) and apparently a turbo Corolla hatchback that may be branded "GTI"(?).
The FR-S isn't mentioned in this article but it has already been confirmed that it will get a second generation and full redesign.
The only sad rumor here is that a three pedal manual isn't mentioned for the Supra... but a dual-clutch auto is. Nothing wrong with a dual-clutch though.
The S-FR, like the totally separate FR-S/BRZ, is set to have manual and automatic options.
Still, nothing is 100% confirmed until it is by Toyota.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/toyota-...orts-concepts/
The FR-S isn't mentioned in this article but it has already been confirmed that it will get a second generation and full redesign.
The only sad rumor here is that a three pedal manual isn't mentioned for the Supra... but a dual-clutch auto is. Nothing wrong with a dual-clutch though.
The S-FR, like the totally separate FR-S/BRZ, is set to have manual and automatic options.
Still, nothing is 100% confirmed until it is by Toyota.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/toyota-...orts-concepts/
01-29-17, 08:38 AM
#2
Lexus Champion
There is already a variant of the Corolla in Europe (the Auris hatchback) available with a turbocharged engine, a small, 1.2-litre turbocharged 4-cylinder. It is not marketed as a hot-hatch though.
I suspect the Corolla may come with one of the new engines that was just announced (member of the Dynamic Force family of new engines?).
I suspect the Corolla may come with one of the new engines that was just announced (member of the Dynamic Force family of new engines?).
01-29-17, 12:57 PM
#3
Sulu, it sounds as if that 1.2L turbo four used in the Auris is being adapted from transverse to longitudinal for the S-FR. This would make sense considering it is supposed to hit a $15,000 starting price target. It makes me wonder what existing Toyota/Aisin transmissions are being planned for it.
At least that model has a good chance of making it into the USA/CAN for sale. It's not clear if a Corolla turbo hot hatch with a more powerful engine than that 1.2L will also make it here. I also heard there are plans to sell a road version of the Yaris turbo rally car but realistically only in Europe.
Tada, co-designer of the FR-S/BRZ, Supra MKV and consultant on the production S-FR RWD coupe has said in a prevous interview that he also admires the old Celica GT-Fours and All-Tracs and would like to make a business case for something like that again so it is possible.
At least that model has a good chance of making it into the USA/CAN for sale. It's not clear if a Corolla turbo hot hatch with a more powerful engine than that 1.2L will also make it here. I also heard there are plans to sell a road version of the Yaris turbo rally car but realistically only in Europe.
Tada, co-designer of the FR-S/BRZ, Supra MKV and consultant on the production S-FR RWD coupe has said in a prevous interview that he also admires the old Celica GT-Fours and All-Tracs and would like to make a business case for something like that again so it is possible.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 01-29-17 at 01:00 PM.
01-29-17, 09:33 PM
#4
Moderator: LFA, Clubhouse
01-30-17, 05:37 AM
#5
I would expect so, being a roadster and since BMW Z3's and Z4's have always had them.
I also expect the Supra to have a manual transmission in the highest performance trim level even if it is a V6 twin turbo hybrid. It's going to stay RWD and many popular high performance cars still offer the choice of a modern DCT auto or three pedal manual. A lot of people who love the Supra lineage still love manual transmissions and Tada and Akio Toyoda surely realize that since they've been putting so much effort into featuring them lately outside of Lexus luxury models.
The FR-S was based around a high manual take rate and the S-FR is featuring a manual as well. Even the carryover Scion iM (Auris) and Scion iA (Mazda2) still offer manuals. I don't think Toyota has lost sight of how enthusiasts still like manuals. I'm not saying the iA and iM are enthusiast cars by any means but they are well built and decent handling inexpensive economy cars with stick shifts... a rarity today.
But I do suspect the DCT option will be more prominent in this Supra than the automatic ever was in the MKIV.
Also, Gazoo racing released a 500 unit special edition run of Toyota Mark X "GRMN" sedans (Avalon sized sedans but RWD with a 300hp 3.5L V6) with 6-speed manual transmissions from the factory. I believe it is a variant of the 6-speed found in the FJ Cruiser and some Tacomas so not even as strong as the old R154 but they actually did this for the Japanese market enthusiast crowd. That has to say something about their position on manuals outside of Lexus models.
I also expect the Supra to have a manual transmission in the highest performance trim level even if it is a V6 twin turbo hybrid. It's going to stay RWD and many popular high performance cars still offer the choice of a modern DCT auto or three pedal manual. A lot of people who love the Supra lineage still love manual transmissions and Tada and Akio Toyoda surely realize that since they've been putting so much effort into featuring them lately outside of Lexus luxury models.
The FR-S was based around a high manual take rate and the S-FR is featuring a manual as well. Even the carryover Scion iM (Auris) and Scion iA (Mazda2) still offer manuals. I don't think Toyota has lost sight of how enthusiasts still like manuals. I'm not saying the iA and iM are enthusiast cars by any means but they are well built and decent handling inexpensive economy cars with stick shifts... a rarity today.
But I do suspect the DCT option will be more prominent in this Supra than the automatic ever was in the MKIV.
Also, Gazoo racing released a 500 unit special edition run of Toyota Mark X "GRMN" sedans (Avalon sized sedans but RWD with a 300hp 3.5L V6) with 6-speed manual transmissions from the factory. I believe it is a variant of the 6-speed found in the FJ Cruiser and some Tacomas so not even as strong as the old R154 but they actually did this for the Japanese market enthusiast crowd. That has to say something about their position on manuals outside of Lexus models.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 01-30-17 at 05:47 AM.
02-03-17, 11:21 AM
#6
Interesting article.
From the sounds of it, the 2.0L turbo may be the same engine as in the RC and IS with a HP bump. I'd still take an RC over the MKV supra 
Co-developed with BMW and using the same rear-wheel-drive platform as the upcoming Z5, we can expect to see the Supra powered by Toyota’s own 255-hp turbocharged 2.0-liter inline-four and a flagship 340-hp turbo 3.0-liter V-6 married to an eight-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission. A 2.5-liter hybrid is expected to join the lineup a year after the launch in late 2018. Although still a concept, the Tokyo car is described as very close to production.
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02-03-17, 01:01 PM
#8
S-FR looked like a kei car. Not sure how they make something smaller than the 86 with 4 seats. I'd rather they make a MR2 successor.
Famous last words.. Ferrari and Lamborghini always had them too.. 
If the BMW I6 and LS500 V6 are any indication, then I'd wager the next Supra is between 400-499hp. Toyota will likely be more conservative for longevity reasons. Not really a big deal though since tuners will likely modify it anyway.
If the BMW I6 and LS500 V6 are any indication, then I'd wager the next Supra is between 400-499hp. Toyota will likely be more conservative for longevity reasons. Not really a big deal though since tuners will likely modify it anyway.
02-06-17, 12:29 PM
#9
I'd also love to see an MR2 successor. And a successor to the Celica All-Trac/GT-Four AWD turbo rally coupe.
This is true and you know I love manuals. However Ferrari tends to market from the standpoint of "F1 technology trickle down" so much as I love manually shifted Ferraris I get it that they mostly want to showcase the newest technology. Lamborghini... that's a harder no-manual sell for me since they're not really a racing technology car company. But the buyer bases of both are what have dictated the death of manuals for both brands.
More affordable high performance cars below six figure MSRPs tend to still offer three-pedal manuals. And Porsche's 911, Cayman and Boxster line. And the Corvette. Those are the competitor targets I'd expect Toyota to aim the Supra MKV at... but also maybe just at the fan base of the Supra in a package that isn't priced too far out of where its market appeal really is.
I expect a manual to be offered in a turbo version but I expect a true DCT also. We've already seen Whifbitz in the UK demonstrate a BMW/Getrag 7-speed DCT conversion on an MKIV and that is just a sign of the times.
At the very least, the lesser powered Toyota 86 and S-FR and whatever the Corolla hatchback turbo will be are all going to have manuals
I agree with this also. I do think it will probably be a very reworked variant of the basic V6-TT engine in the new LS sedan with an emphasis on being able to take more tuning than stock. Toyota may not be directly chasing the R35 GTR with the new Supra but they are no doubt aware that the car and its drivetrain needs to be a credible high performance platform that they knew well people will begin to mess with.
02-06-17, 11:12 PM
#10
Moderator: LFA, Clubhouse
To be fair, it's also been a long time since Ferrari was about the driver and the driving experience rather than chasing lap times or meeting emissions regulations.
02-06-17, 11:42 PM
#11
Even so, you don't feel their newer cars emphasize the driving experience? I have to admit that when I think of a nice Ferrari I personally like and which to me emphasizes driving I tend to lean towards the older 512BB, 288 GTO, F40, F355, 456M, 612 Scaglietti or going way back, most of their 60's models. All of those and more just seem cut from a different thread.
As far as manuals and Ferraris, they could offer them as an option in their non-track road-only models (such as the FF/GTC4) if they wanted to. While I'm in no position to put my money where my mouth is regarding that marque, I find it a bit ridiculous that even if I could I still couldn't special order a manual transmission in such an extravagantly expensive and whimsical performance car.
For their mostly track oriented models... I get not having a manual option. For almost any ultra high performance car with a very powerful engine that revs extremely fast I get it. But when it's not a barely road legal track machine that has a nice leather interior, a stereo and all manner or creature comforts that a track car doesn't need... I don't understand the lack of a manual transmission option.
I'd rather enjoy the drive and engage with the car than try to beat a lap counter and let more than one mild traction control system do the driving for me... in a road car at least.
Price for the technology and cost of attention to detail aside, I guess it comes down to what kind of experience someone really wants in a high performance car. I have nothing against DCT's either. I quite like them for how they are the next true evolution from three-pedal manuals. I just don't see why the traditional manual transmission is (seemingly) universally thought of as having little value when I'd argue it does in the right applications.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 02-06-17 at 11:52 PM.
02-10-17, 08:32 PM
#13
GoHuskers, I'm sure a bump from 235hp to 255hp is possible but I haven't yet heard of the factory ECU being cracked yet for tuning and it's not clear how much extra breathing can be coaxed out of the cylinder head design which has an integrated exhaust manifold. That's becoming a very common thing on most newer V6, I4 and I3 engines by the way. The factory turbo itself is supposed to be an in-house Toyota design so it is surely long-lasting but it's also unclear how much extra boost it can handle before it's well out of its efficiency range.
The 8AR-FTS is very new to the aftermarket community. It's still very early days learning about what can be done with it beyond stock. If Toyota uses a variant of it in the Supra I am certain the model trim it goes into won't have JUST 255hp from the engine alone.
The 8AR-FTS is very new to the aftermarket community. It's still very early days learning about what can be done with it beyond stock. If Toyota uses a variant of it in the Supra I am certain the model trim it goes into won't have JUST 255hp from the engine alone.
02-11-17, 12:39 PM
#15
Lexus Champion
GoHuskers, I'm sure a bump from 235hp to 255hp is possible but I haven't yet heard of the factory ECU being cracked yet for tuning and it's not clear how much extra breathing can be coaxed out of the cylinder head design which has an integrated exhaust manifold. That's becoming a very common thing on most newer V6, I4 and I3 engines by the way. The factory turbo itself is supposed to be an in-house Toyota design so it is surely long-lasting but it's also unclear how much extra boost it can handle before it's well out of its efficiency range.
The 8AR-FTS is very new to the aftermarket community. It's still very early days learning about what can be done with it beyond stock. If Toyota uses a variant of it in the Supra I am certain the model trim it goes into won't have JUST 255hp from the engine alone.
The 8AR-FTS is very new to the aftermarket community. It's still very early days learning about what can be done with it beyond stock. If Toyota uses a variant of it in the Supra I am certain the model trim it goes into won't have JUST 255hp from the engine alone.
However, some design details of the 8AR-FTS indicates Toyota has bigger plans for this engine, and its usage on the Lexus NX200t is just the tip of the iceberg.
One distinct feature of the 8AR-FTS is: despite using an air-to-air intercooler, it is using an air-to-liquid intercooler. Please note that here the “intercooler” means the mechanical part used to cool the intake air, which is heated up by the red-hot turbocharger.
One distinct feature of the 8AR-FTS is: despite using an air-to-air intercooler, it is using an air-to-liquid intercooler. Please note that here the “intercooler” means the mechanical part used to cool the intake air, which is heated up by the red-hot turbocharger.
There are multiple advantages of using air-to-liquid intercooler, for example: shorter overall pipe and intercooler length provides less turbo lag and faster throttle response; better cooling efficiency which is good for higher hp output and withstand higher workload.
Hinted from the Mercedes-Benz M133 engine, which pumps out 355hp from just a 2.0L displacement (used on the CLA45 AMG), it is very obvious that under the table, Toyota is planning some high-output variant of the 8AR-FTS engine, or at least something based on it.
Hinted from the Mercedes-Benz M133 engine, which pumps out 355hp from just a 2.0L displacement (used on the CLA45 AMG), it is very obvious that under the table, Toyota is planning some high-output variant of the 8AR-FTS engine, or at least something based on it.
If Toyota just wants to keep the 8AR engine to the 235hp-level on the current Lexus NX200t, the air-to-liquid intercooler design is an unnecessary overkill, which is more complicate to deisgn, and has a higher cost...
Besides the air-to-liquid intercooler, the 8AR-FTS engine also has other design features that has far more potentials than its current application on the NX200t, for example it also has an integrated 4-2-1 exhaust manifold, which are previously only used in sports-oriented engines.
Source
The air-to liquid (air-to-water) intercooler suggests the engine could handle extra boost, and the 4-into-2 exhaust manifold makes it compatible with a twin-scroll turbocharger. Either (or both) would give this engine more power.