2015 Luxury Sales Battle Review
#16
Lexus Fanatic
He's absolutely right. Manufacturers hate it and have been battling with their dealers to put controls in to stop this lucrative exportation of US-market vehicles for some time now. I noticed yesterday that TTAC (a site which normally do not like, mind you) actually published an article about this very subject.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...alers-exports/
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...alers-exports/
#17
Lexus Champion
Your first point was about comparing sales for a luxury sedan manufacturers vs a shared FWD platform manufacturer. The CLA was meant to question that.
You then went on to state that sales numbers don't distinguish enthusiasts buyers. Who cares if they don't?
Lexus sales are higher than BMW for 2015, based on registration numbers. Plain and simple.
You then went on to state that sales numbers don't distinguish enthusiasts buyers. Who cares if they don't?
Lexus sales are higher than BMW for 2015, based on registration numbers. Plain and simple.
The luxury segment is divided into a pie chart in itself but generally average transaction prices certainly do provide some indicators. Do you tell the registration clerk at the local motor vehicle registry how much you paid for your Lexus NX, ES, or RX?
#18
So does BMW have a non-premium family sedan architecture that it uses on a cross-platform basis in the luxury segment? Context is everything in headlines, even if they make you happy down at the Lexus dealership.
The luxury segment is divided into a pie chart in itself but generally average transaction prices certainly do provide some indicators. Do you tell the registration clerk at the local motor vehicle registry how much you paid for your Lexus NX, ES, or RX?
The luxury segment is divided into a pie chart in itself but generally average transaction prices certainly do provide some indicators. Do you tell the registration clerk at the local motor vehicle registry how much you paid for your Lexus NX, ES, or RX?
#20
Pole Position
And RX, ES and NX are the major sellers. What does this tell you about who's buying what? The comparison between a dedicated German sports sedan company and sales on a shared FWD platform are tough to translate.
Total sales don't always give you an actual "enthusiast" breakdown of why people buy certain car models.
https://lexusenthusiast.com/2015/10/...-sales-report/
Total sales don't always give you an actual "enthusiast" breakdown of why people buy certain car models.
https://lexusenthusiast.com/2015/10/...-sales-report/
#21
Super Moderator
Same goes for the Challenger/Charger, and most performance vehicles coming from a high-volume marque. Offering a decontented or lower-powered version of a popular model to increase sales does not mean the model can not live up to what it's intended to be. In many cases, the increased revenue from the higher sales volume can subsidize costs that otherwise would have been difficult to justify for the top model.
#22
Lexus Champion
Lol. All mainstream family sedans I'm sure. MINI is a mainstream family sedan? Really? That been happening for the last 40 years or what? Please don't insult anyone's intelligence. There's a market for Lexus and it's one of the best brands for a number of factors but headlines praising sales always make me take a pause. Even if it means that diehard fanboys and Lexus dealers love it.
#23
Pole Position
By this logic, the Camaro and Mustang should be disqualified as pony cars, since the majority of their sales are of the 4- and 6-cylinder variants. Especially considering the 4-banger 328i gets to 60 a half second quicker than the V6 Camaro. The 2015+ Mustang Ecoboost (also a 4-banger) is able to match the 5.5 second time of the 328i. I'd disagree with you here, and say there's plenty of fun to be had in cars this quick.
Same goes for the Challenger/Charger, and most performance vehicles coming from a high-volume marque. Offering a decontented or lower-powered version of a popular model to increase sales does not mean the model can not live up to what it's intended to be. In many cases, the increased revenue from the higher sales volume can subsidize costs that otherwise would have been difficult to justify for the top model.
Same goes for the Challenger/Charger, and most performance vehicles coming from a high-volume marque. Offering a decontented or lower-powered version of a popular model to increase sales does not mean the model can not live up to what it's intended to be. In many cases, the increased revenue from the higher sales volume can subsidize costs that otherwise would have been difficult to justify for the top model.
My point is that RWD does not automatically = enthusiast when the car is underpowered for its weight. Current generation 3/5 series are also mediocre handlers compared to the Lexus IS/Caddy ATS/Lexus GS etc.
For the vast vast majority of BMW clientele, RWD = poseur rather than enthusiast.
So posters trying to herald BMW as some bastion of driving enthusiasts need to take a reality check. A 320i is as "enthusiast" as a FWD Lexus ES. Both are volume sellers for their respective brands. A 320i sale does not make BMW more enthusiast oriented than Lexus LOL.
#24
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
And RX, ES and NX are the major sellers. What does this tell you about who's buying what? The comparison between a dedicated German sports sedan company and sales on a shared FWD platform are tough to translate.
Total sales don't always give you an actual "enthusiast" breakdown of why people buy certain car models.
https://lexusenthusiast.com/2015/10/...-sales-report/
Total sales don't always give you an actual "enthusiast" breakdown of why people buy certain car models.
https://lexusenthusiast.com/2015/10/...-sales-report/
Do you realize that:
1. BMW sells more SUVs in USA than Sedans?
2. Most of their Sedan sales are 4cly?
So what does "a dedicated German sports sedan company" mean? A company that sells more SUVs than Sedans and a company where majority of "sports sedan" sales are 4cly?
Only thing that matters for luxury when it comes to what you are selling is average transaction price... and Lexus is very close to BMW, with MB being better than both. There used to be a large difference long time ago, not so much anymore.
#25
Lexus Test Driver
My point is that RWD does not automatically = enthusiast when the car is underpowered for its weight. Current generation 3/5 series are also mediocre handlers compared to the Lexus IS/Caddy ATS/Lexus GS etc.
For the vast vast majority of BMW clientele, RWD = poseur rather than enthusiast.
So posters trying to herald BMW as some bastion of driving enthusiasts need to take a reality check. A 320i is as "enthusiast" as a FWD Lexus ES. Both are volume sellers for their respective brands. A 320i sale does not make BMW more enthusiast oriented than Lexus LOL.
For the vast vast majority of BMW clientele, RWD = poseur rather than enthusiast.
So posters trying to herald BMW as some bastion of driving enthusiasts need to take a reality check. A 320i is as "enthusiast" as a FWD Lexus ES. Both are volume sellers for their respective brands. A 320i sale does not make BMW more enthusiast oriented than Lexus LOL.
I was a BMW guy through and through. While the e46 chassis had its issues, they were known and documented. It was a driver's chassis first and foremost. The e60 was also driver oriented, but geared to the "executive driver". After that, BMW moved to the mass market, cost cutting, mush feeling suspension/sterring response, and Lexus amped up the driver feel on the IS/GS platforms.
Unless one wants true M series (M2/M3), everything else BMW sells today is not for enthusiasts, it is for the mass market (2, 3 and 5 series) and for the luxury market (7 and 8 series).
#26
This
I was a BMW guy through and through. While the e46 chassis had its issues, they were known and documented. It was a driver's chassis first and foremost. The e60 was also driver oriented, but geared to the "executive driver". After that, BMW moved to the mass market, cost cutting, mush feeling suspension/sterring response, and Lexus amped up the driver feel on the IS/GS platforms.
Unless one wants true M series (M2/M3), everything else BMW sells today is not for enthusiasts, it is for the mass market (2, 3 and 5 series) and for the luxury market (7 and 8 series).
I was a BMW guy through and through. While the e46 chassis had its issues, they were known and documented. It was a driver's chassis first and foremost. The e60 was also driver oriented, but geared to the "executive driver". After that, BMW moved to the mass market, cost cutting, mush feeling suspension/sterring response, and Lexus amped up the driver feel on the IS/GS platforms.
Unless one wants true M series (M2/M3), everything else BMW sells today is not for enthusiasts, it is for the mass market (2, 3 and 5 series) and for the luxury market (7 and 8 series).
#27
This
I was a BMW guy through and through. While the e46 chassis had its issues, they were known and documented. It was a driver's chassis first and foremost. The e60 was also driver oriented, but geared to the "executive driver". After that, BMW moved to the mass market, cost cutting, mush feeling suspension/sterring response, and Lexus amped up the driver feel on the IS/GS platforms.
Unless one wants true M series (M2/M3), everything else BMW sells today is not for enthusiasts, it is for the mass market (2, 3 and 5 series) and for the luxury market (7 and 8 series).
I was a BMW guy through and through. While the e46 chassis had its issues, they were known and documented. It was a driver's chassis first and foremost. The e60 was also driver oriented, but geared to the "executive driver". After that, BMW moved to the mass market, cost cutting, mush feeling suspension/sterring response, and Lexus amped up the driver feel on the IS/GS platforms.
Unless one wants true M series (M2/M3), everything else BMW sells today is not for enthusiasts, it is for the mass market (2, 3 and 5 series) and for the luxury market (7 and 8 series).
I think BMW cut their budget on development for new models and just said, "eh, good enough on the suspension/chassis/ride". Even driving old BMW's, like the E38, E39, E36, they handle better and have a more connected feeling to the road. You can tell that BMW really sweated the chassis/suspension on those old cars.
Anyways, I think all of BMW's R&D money went away from their mainstream cars and into stupid niche models that nobody is going to buy like the i3 & i8. Or they spent all their R&D on redundant and ugly humpback model variants, along with making 20 versions of the Mini.
#28
Lead Lap
my 2Cs this doesnt matter. As long as your in the black and moving units without factory support your golden.
In regards to bimmer, "punching" was exposed by MB a couple yrs back, dealers got scolded. But its stupid. BMW demands to be the leader in sales by hook or crook Wink wink, so the dealers do it, and then they get scolded for doing as they are told lol.
BMWs are smart little fs.
First they run the Ultimate driving machine which engrains this onto potential customers, and customers heads regardless of how it actually drives.
Second they have realized platform sharing is a must since now the 1 series SAVs are going FWD/Mini
Third, BMW is on a fuel efficency craze. CFRP stop start systems, downsizing engines
Fourth BMW no longer offers a standard spec/base model with good driving dynamics. You pay to play
basically BMW offered nothing for free before except a good handling car. Now everything from the dash trim to handling everything is an option.
In regards to bimmer, "punching" was exposed by MB a couple yrs back, dealers got scolded. But its stupid. BMW demands to be the leader in sales by hook or crook Wink wink, so the dealers do it, and then they get scolded for doing as they are told lol.
BMWs are smart little fs.
First they run the Ultimate driving machine which engrains this onto potential customers, and customers heads regardless of how it actually drives.
Second they have realized platform sharing is a must since now the 1 series SAVs are going FWD/Mini
Third, BMW is on a fuel efficency craze. CFRP stop start systems, downsizing engines
Fourth BMW no longer offers a standard spec/base model with good driving dynamics. You pay to play
basically BMW offered nothing for free before except a good handling car. Now everything from the dash trim to handling everything is an option.
#29
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by natnut
My point is that RWD does not automatically = enthusiast when the car is underpowered for its weight. Current generation 3/5 series are also mediocre handlers compared to the Lexus IS/Caddy ATS/Lexus GS etc.
Originally Posted by natnut
So posters trying to herald BMW as some bastion of driving enthusiasts need to take a reality check. A 320i is as "enthusiast" as a FWD Lexus ES. Both are volume sellers for their respective brands. A 320i sale does not make BMW more enthusiast oriented than Lexus LOL.
Originally Posted by spywolf
Do you realize that:
1. BMW sells more SUVs in USA than Sedans?
2. Most of their Sedan sales are 4cly?
1. BMW sells more SUVs in USA than Sedans?
2. Most of their Sedan sales are 4cly?
Originally Posted by spywolf
So what does "a dedicated German sports sedan company" mean? A company that sells more SUVs than Sedans and a company where majority of "sports sedan" sales are 4cly?
But it's always a problem when headline posting gets questioned. Here's an obnoxious tilted test ala TG style to mollify some posters for snits and giggles.
#30
Lexus Test Driver
facetious straw man argument = BMW fan boy posting on a Lexus enthusiast's forum
Baiting with open ended comments, and then dissecting replies selectively to further their arguments.
Baiting with open ended comments, and then dissecting replies selectively to further their arguments.