cars.com / motorweek midsize sedan shoot out
12-01-14, 09:04 PM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
I think its a sign that the segment is improving tremendously overall. Just last year the Accord was winning comperos, now its a little long in the tooth feeling already.
12-02-14, 01:02 AM
#47
The current Altima has some foibles, I have a neighbor who has one. Not a huge fan. But, the Accord is excellent, it rides a little hard and is a little loud...but it always has been.
I think its a sign that the segment is improving tremendously overall. Just last year the Accord was winning comperos, now its a little long in the tooth feeling already.
I think its a sign that the segment is improving tremendously overall. Just last year the Accord was winning comperos, now its a little long in the tooth feeling already.
. Had a brief drive in a 2014 Accord. Agree with the mini assessment, and a massive improvement over the 08-13. You just described Honda as a whole
12-02-14, 06:35 AM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
but as always, this is like 'experts' analyzing bath tub colors... purple and orange might win in their analysis, but people will continue to buy white and cream.
12-02-14, 07:05 AM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
They had a real shopping family involved as well though, not just the professionals
12-02-14, 09:07 AM
#50
^Which is why I think it's rather odd that you are raking the Camry over the coals and saying that it's representative of Toyota's shoddy quality and practice of cheating customers. I mean come on. Cars.com? USA Today? Motorweek? Car shopping families?
Lets be real about this: Until we start to see a number of comparisons from Motor Trend, Car & Driver and other top-tier, respected automotive industry publications (read: people who know what they're talking about), I think it's a little far reaching to make these claims about the Camry being garbage and Toyota "not caring." Hyundai and Ford have both lied about MPG across some of their models - in Ford's case, twice. Who really doesn't care now?
Come on.
Lets be real about this: Until we start to see a number of comparisons from Motor Trend, Car & Driver and other top-tier, respected automotive industry publications (read: people who know what they're talking about), I think it's a little far reaching to make these claims about the Camry being garbage and Toyota "not caring." Hyundai and Ford have both lied about MPG across some of their models - in Ford's case, twice. Who really doesn't care now?
Come on.
12-02-14, 09:11 AM
#51
It was not that bad. I owned that model (Gen6) of Camry for 4 years, and in fact, other than an artificially heavy steering feel and slow throttle tip-in response, it was quite a nice car. Its interior was better than the pre-facelifted Gen7 Camry with its hideously plastic centre stack.
There is a reason why Camrys are known as "luxury" cars: They are very nice, quiet, very refined automobiles that the North American Everyman can afford to drive.
It is quite funny how people who have only driven a Camry on a test drive (or never driven one before) -- let alone owned generation after generation (like I have) -- knee-jerkingly criticise it as the worst thing since sliced bread.
You are all correct that no one feature about a Camry stands out above other features -- not its styling, not its handling, not its speed. That is because a Camry does a lot of things very well; Toyota did not compromise one or more features in order to have one particular feature stand above all else and above its competitors. It is the perfect Everyman's car.
Toyota built a better Corolla for North America. It is called Camry.
There is a reason why Camrys are known as "luxury" cars: They are very nice, quiet, very refined automobiles that the North American Everyman can afford to drive.
It is quite funny how people who have only driven a Camry on a test drive (or never driven one before) -- let alone owned generation after generation (like I have) -- knee-jerkingly criticise it as the worst thing since sliced bread.
You are all correct that no one feature about a Camry stands out above other features -- not its styling, not its handling, not its speed. That is because a Camry does a lot of things very well; Toyota did not compromise one or more features in order to have one particular feature stand above all else and above its competitors. It is the perfect Everyman's car.
Toyota built a better Corolla for North America. It is called Camry.
Talk to people who own Hyundai, Nissan, Ford, Chevy or Mazda products over 100k miles, or for 10+ years. This is where Camry and Accord really stand apart from the rest, and it takes a lot of driving and reflection on the true ownership experience to appreciate that value. Toyota has clearly done something right as people keep coming back.
12-02-14, 10:47 AM
#52
i think the auto reviewers here suffered from bias due to over-familiarity (thus not impressed) with cars like camry and accord, and under-familiarity (surprise) with others.
but as always, this is like 'experts' analyzing bath tub colors... purple and orange might win in their analysis, but people will continue to buy white and cream.
but as always, this is like 'experts' analyzing bath tub colors... purple and orange might win in their analysis, but people will continue to buy white and cream.
12-02-14, 11:22 AM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
I based my comments not simply on one quick review/test-drive, but decades of test-driving and reviewing Camrys. It is my strong opinion (which is not going to change) that the 3rd-generation 1992-96 Camry was, overall, by far the best, and, though they have usually remained reliable, there was a slow but steady decline in build/material solidness from 1997 until the latest-generation model, which, except for the door-thickness, did show some improvements. That is not just blind or unfound criticism as "worst thing since sliced bread", but simply noticing (and acknowledgement) of a pattern. If I said anything else, I would be lying.
12-02-14, 11:33 AM
#54
I based my comments not simply on one quick review/test-drive, but decades of test-driving and reviewing Camrys. It is my strong opinion (which is not going to change) that the 3rd-generation 1992-96 Camry was, overall, by far the best, and, though they have usually remained reliable, there was a slow but steady decline in build/material solidness from 1997 until the latest-generation model, which, except for the door-thickness, did show some improvements. That is not just blind or unfound criticism as "worst thing since sliced bread", but simply noticing (and acknowledgement) of a pattern. If I said anything else, I would be lying.
Last edited by Allen K; 12-02-14 at 11:56 AM. Reason: formatting
12-02-14, 11:42 AM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
But it's not a uniquely Toyota problem. All manufacturers have been cheapening out their interiors over the years as restrictions on allowable materials, required increases i nfuel economy, and overall profitability have been playing key roles in what cars are made out of
12-02-14, 11:55 AM
#56
Agreed. Some other manufacturers have also followed suit. Honda cheapened out the 2012 Civic badly...to the point where, because of the criticism, they had to rush through some emergency improvements for the 2013 model year. Some Subaru vehicles today lack the build-solidness that they had before 2008-2010. But, conversely, some manufacturers, such as Hyundai/Kia, GM, and Chrysler, have noticeably better-built vehicles today than 10-15 years ago.
I miss that solid thunk that all doors used to have.
12-02-14, 02:21 PM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
^Which is why I think it's rather odd that you are raking the Camry over the coals and saying that it's representative of Toyota's shoddy quality and practice of cheating customers. I mean come on. Cars.com? USA Today? Motorweek? Car shopping families?
Lets be real about this: Until we start to see a number of comparisons from Motor Trend, Car & Driver and other top-tier, respected automotive industry publications (read: people who know what they're talking about), I think it's a little far reaching to make these claims about the Camry being garbage and Toyota "not caring." Hyundai and Ford have both lied about MPG across some of their models - in Ford's case, twice. Who really doesn't care now?
Come on.
Lets be real about this: Until we start to see a number of comparisons from Motor Trend, Car & Driver and other top-tier, respected automotive industry publications (read: people who know what they're talking about), I think it's a little far reaching to make these claims about the Camry being garbage and Toyota "not caring." Hyundai and Ford have both lied about MPG across some of their models - in Ford's case, twice. Who really doesn't care now?
Come on.
My viewpoint does not only come from reviews, it comes from my own experiences as well. I see and drive a lot of cars, I get out and sit in cars and test drive cars during the day when I'm in between appointments, I've sat in and/or driven pretty much all these cars. I am 100% being honest when I say that the only current Toyota I think is the best product in its class is the Prius (not counting Lexus models). They do not make one product that I honestly today would buy over a competitor's product. Quality got to a point around 2007-2010 where I thought Toyota had sunk to the point of making the worst interiors in the business. Headliners that reminded me of cardboard McDonalds drink trays, terrible hard plastics, horrible fake wood. Terrible.
They're improving. The new Highlander is a huge improvement over the old Highlander, which I thought was shamefully cheap inside for its price point. I have not seen the refreshed Camry yet. The competition is really improving a lot too though.
As for sources? People read cars.com & USA Today a lot more than they read MotorTrend or Car & Driver. This is where ordinary people are reading about cars. MotorWeek has been reviewing cars for 30+ years...they don't know what they're doing?
You don't do Toyota any favors by making excuses for them. Demand growth and great cars, innovation. Without that, its a brand thats not worthy of any enthusiasm or enthusiasts. IMHO it hasn't been for a while, hopefully they can turn that around.
Nobody is infallible. If Toyota rests on their laurels too long, they WILL be overtaken. There was a time when the Ford Taurus was the huge sales leader, and the Ford Explorer was untouchable. GM was the biggest automaker in the world and Lincoln had the crown for the US' best selling luxury car. Nobody is safe.
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-02-14 at 02:24 PM.
12-02-14, 03:28 PM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by SW13GS
Quality got to a point around 2007-2010 where I thought Toyota had sunk to the point of making the worst interiors in the business. Headliners that reminded me of cardboard McDonalds drink trays, terrible hard plastics, horrible fake wood. Terrible.
MotorWeek has been reviewing cars for 30+ years...they don't know what they're doing?
If Toyota rests on their laurels too long, they WILL be overtaken.
Nobody is safe.
12-02-14, 07:25 PM
#59
But it's not a uniquely Toyota problem. All manufacturers have been cheapening out their interiors over the years as restrictions on allowable materials, required increases in fuel economy, and overall profitability have been playing key roles in what cars are made out of
12-02-14, 08:14 PM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
You probably haven't driven a 2015 Sonata or Genesis yet. Hyundai is not following the trend of cheapening the interiors, cutting back seat bottom size and padding, making the ride hard and noisy, etc. The 2015 Sonata drives with the ride smoothness, quietness and solidity of the 2007-2012 ES350. And the Genesis approaches the ride smoothness and quietness of the LS460. And both have relatively upscale looking and feeling interiors. Neither car is selling well yet because word has not gotten around about how much these cars have been improved nor does Hyundai run ads highlighting the improvements.