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But some would argue that Infiniti itself isn't really successful at much. Acura had great success with the Integra / RSX.
I think Infiniti has done OK. Not anywhere near as good as Lexus.
Cadillac would do really well with a smaller entry level Caddy below the ATS. Buick is cleaning up with sales right now for those who can't afford real luxury but will instead settle for sub luxury.
I think Infiniti has done OK. Not anywhere near as good as Lexus.
Cadillac would do really well with a smaller entry level Caddy below the ATS. Buick is cleaning up with sales right now for those who can't afford real luxury but will instead settle for sub luxury.
A $27,000 Cadillac VTS would sell well.
I think the poor marketing played a big role. Also I don't think their cars from the 90s were really good looking cars.
Yeah, they are better off than brands like Volvo or Saab.
It might or might not work for Lexus. I say that, not to straddle the fence, but to point out that Infiniti tried marketing two different generations of the small G20 sedan twice in the American market...with a several-year hiatus in between. Both attempts, BTW, were unsuccessful, and Infiniti has not tried another sedan or coupe in the U.S. that small ever since. But it should also be pointed out that Infiniti's marketing has never been as good as that of Lexus, and that what doesn't work for Infiniti might work for the big "L". Lexus did try the small unsuccessful HS250 Hybrid sedan, but that was not a true competitor to the likes of the A3, CLA, 1-series, etc.....
(BTW, I liked the 1Gen G20, and seriously considered buying one, but I was still driving Mazdas at the time).
The G20 was replaced by the G35 over a decade ago. Obviously things have changed considerably in the luxury market since then. What you claim to be "unsuccessful" 12 years ago is completely irrelevant in 2014 and beyond. This segment is red hot right now and Cadillac, Infiniti, and Lexus better hurry and come up with something to compete or they will fall behind.
The G20 was replaced by the G35 over a decade ago.
True....and the G35 sold. The G20 didn't. So what's the point? I never made the claim that the G20 sold well...though I personally liked the first version myself. The second was considerably less impressive....too much of a Nissan Sentra.
Obviously things have changed considerably in the luxury market since then. What you claim to be "unsuccessful" 12 years ago is completely irrelevant in 2014 and beyond. This segment is red hot right now and Cadillac, Infiniti, and Lexus better hurry and come up with something to compete or they will fall behind.
First. the G20's fall was not simply a claim. It was a historical fact, backed up by poor sales. It was twice-introduced and twice-failed. But, as you say, conditions are somewhat different now, in 2014. Still, it is risky, especially in the U.S., for manufacturers to introduce small compact sedans/coupes...that's one reason why many of them have traditionally stayed in Europe and/or other non-U.S. markets. Lexus tried with the HS, which failed (though it was not really a sport-oriented sedan, but a small hybrid). Acura tried the ILX, which failed (mostly from poor insulation and a firm noisy ride). Audi's A3 seems to be getting good press....but, again, it is a risk, having switched from hatchbacks to sedans in the U.S.
BTW, did you intend to omit Lincoln among the list of other manufacturers that, in your words, have to "hurry up"? They have not introduced a new small sedan in that size-range, preferring to capitalize, right now, on the also-hot CUV market with the MKC.
Last edited by mmarshall; Aug 18, 2014 at 07:23 PM.
Lexus tried with the HS, which failed (though it was not really a sport-oriented sedan, but a small hybrid).
The HS failed because it looked like an ugly Corolla and used outdated hybrid tech. Just an awful product. Had they styled it appropriately like a Lexus (instead of looking like a Corolla with chrome trim) and used the current Prius hybrid system (instead of the older outdated system), they could have had a hit. But they dropped the ball. The HS failing had nothing to do with it being a compact sedan.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Acura tried the ILX, which failed (mostly from poor insulation and a firm noisy ride). Audi's A3 seems to be getting good press....but, again, it is a risk, having switched from hatchbacks to sedans in the U.S.
The ILX hasn't failed... yet. I still think they could turn sales around if they option it out appropriately and offer more powerful engine options and a more potent hybrid system (taken from the new Accord hybrid). The ILX certainly isn't the flop that the RLX is.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
BTW, did you intend to omit Lincoln among the list of other manufacturers that, in your words, have to "hurry up"? They have not introduced a new small sedan in that size-range, preferring to capitalize, right now, on the also-hot CUV market with the MKC.
Yes, I omitted Lincoln because I consider them to be more of a Buick alternative than a real luxury brand. The last thing Lincoln needs right now is to waste resources on building a compact sedan.
The HS failed because it looked like an ugly Corolla and used outdated hybrid tech. Just an awful product. Had they styled it appropriately like a Lexus (instead of looking like a Corolla with chrome trim) and used the current Prius hybrid system (instead of the older outdated system), they could have had a hit. But they dropped the ball. The HS failing had nothing to do with it being a compact sedan.
The ILX hasn't failed... yet. I still think they could turn sales around if they option it out appropriately and offer more powerful engine options and a more potent hybrid system (taken from the new Accord hybrid). The ILX certainly isn't the flop that the RLX is.
Yes, I omitted Lincoln because I consider them to be more of a Buick alternative than a real luxury brand. The last thing Lincoln needs right now is to waste resources on building a compact sedan.
I agree with your comments about the Lincoln. They are not really a trye luxury brand, however I do believe that certain cars like the Fusion based Lincoln competes head on with the ES.
Both the Fusion based Lincoln and the ES are a notch above the Lacrosse.
Do you think Cadillac might succeed with a Cruze based Cadillac ???
Funny to see this turn into defending Inifniit in a ATS thread. SMH. A sub ATS didn' work in Europe, seems no one remembers this Saab based FWD Caddy for Europe. These other brands need to be careful, the Germans can go downmarket as they are already upmarket. Caddy is still trying to build upon some of their successes.
The HS should not be in the conversation. The car was a 36k-48k car loaded. That is not entry level. The car had features in 2010 some are just now getting for their 2015 model years.
The G20 was an entry level car in the lower to mid 20k range. They took the name G and simply slapped it on the Nissan Skyline which was a RWD/V-6 instead of FWD/I-4. They are coming with a smaller car, a Renault/Benz mashup.
The ILX has failed, the sales goal was 40k, they barely hit 20k. The hybrid is already discontinued.
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I think Cadillac needs to develop a decent flagship first that will give them some real luxury cred. After that happens, more buyers will want to get in at the entry level. The entry-level cars have worked well for MB and BMW because they have luxury cred and people will buy the cheaper cars just for the emblems. If they introduce a sub-ATS first they will be going about this *** backwards.
I think Cadillac needs to develop a decent flagship first that will give them some real luxury cred. After that happens, more buyers will want to get in at the entry level. The entry-level cars have worked well for MB and BMW because they have luxury cred and people will buy the cheaper cars just for the emblems. If they introduce a sub-ATS first they will be going about this *** backwards.
Funny to see this turn into defending Inifniit in a ATS thread.
I only used Infiniti to point to point out that the G20 was a clear failure,and that simply introducing a small sedan with an upmarket badge on it doesn't guarantee success. The Acura ILX also proved that.
no one remembers this Saab based FWD Caddy for Europe.
Not sure I follow just which model you're talking about here....the Catera? The old Cadillac Catera used a platform that was shared by Opel, Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac. The Catera, though, differed from its cousins by having RWD.
The HS should not be in the conversation. The car was a 36k-48k car loaded. That is not entry level. The car had features in 2010 some are just now getting for their 2015 model years.
Again, I used it only to illustrate another small upmarket sedan that failed.......and, of course it was not a sport-oriented sedan either, like the German competition.
The G20 was an entry level car in the lower to mid 20k range. They took the name G and simply slapped it on the Nissan Skyline which was a RWD/V-6 instead of FWD/I-4.
You sure about that, Mike? My sources have the G20 (both versions) done on the Nissan Primera...a redone Sentra. The G35 was done on the Skyline platform.
The ILX has failed, the sales goal was 40k, they barely hit 20k. The hybrid is already discontinued.
Correct. That was a point I was trying to make earlier.
I think Cadillac needs to develop a decent flagship first that will give them some real luxury cred. After that happens, more buyers will want to get in at the entry level. The entry-level cars have worked well for MB and BMW because they have luxury cred and people will buy the cheaper cars just for the emblems. If they introduce a sub-ATS first they will be going about this *** backwards.
An all-new Cadillac flagship is coming.....the LTS.
I only used Infiniti to point to point out that the G20 was a clear failure,and that simply introducing a small sedan with an upmarket badge on it doesn't guarantee success. The Acura ILX also proved that.
Not sure I follow just which model you're talking about here....the Catera? The old Cadillac Catera used a platform that was shared by Opel, Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac. The Catera, though, differed from its cousins by having RWD.
Again, I used it only to illustrate another small upmarket sedan that failed.......and, of course it was not a sport-oriented sedan either, like the German competition.
You sure about that, Mike? My sources have the G20 (both versions) done on the Nissan Primera...a redone Sentra. The G35 was done on the Skyline platform.
Correct. That was a point I was trying to make earlier.
Hi Mike, we are not really disagreeing.
I posted a pic of the Caddy BLS, seems everyone forgot it. It was a FWD Caddy for Europe based on the SAAB 9-3. It was a disaster. Now surely a smaller/cheaper FWD caddy might have a fit somewhere but honestly I doubt it. The ATS isn't doing so hot, small Caddy's are now what the world wants.
The HS should not be mentioned, the car was actually overpriced for the market among other things. It was not some cheap compact car, the size at 185 inches long is where the IS/C class etc is today.
I posted a pic of the Caddy BLS, seems everyone forgot it. It was a FWD Caddy for Europe based on the SAAB 9-3. It was a disaster. Now surely a smaller/cheaper FWD caddy might have a fit somewhere but honestly I doubt it. The ATS isn't doing so hot, small Caddy's are now what the world wants.
Thanks. You're right. I indeed had forgotten about that one...the BLS.
Hot and FWD, though, don't always go together well, though modern engineering has admittedly gotten most of the torque steer out of high-powered FWD.
I posted a pic of the Caddy BLS, seems everyone forgot it. It was a FWD Caddy for Europe based on the SAAB 9-3. It was a disaster. Now surely a smaller/cheaper FWD caddy might have a fit somewhere but honestly I doubt it. The ATS isn't doing so hot, small Caddy's are now what the world wants.
The HS should not be mentioned, the car was actually overpriced for the market among other things. It was not some cheap compact car, the size at 185 inches long is where the IS/C class etc is today.
Cadillacs failure in the European market means little, what Cadillac has succeeded in Europe?
In North America, a Cruze based Cadillac would sell like hotcakes.
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I never made the claim that the G20 sold well...though I personally liked the first version myself. The second was considerably less impressive....too much of a Nissan Sentra. 
