Doh - my bad. You're right!


I don't have any problem with FWD or who sells FWD cars. For most buyers, it's a perfectly good solution. For the record, 95+% of Audi sales and 100% of Acura sales are cars that are FWD or an AWD system on a FWD platform. Mercedes' hottest selling product is FWD. BMW's new global platform for Mini and small cars is FWD. You don't find me poking fun at FWD...it has a perfectly good business case, especially when it puts enough money in the bank to fund fun projects like LFAs, R8s, S8s and RC Fs!

Agree 100%!

There you go with a GS jab...lol. Can't disagree though, as Lexus has a ways to go to make their cars "sit" like Quattro Audis.

Um, I don't have any? The A8 is a great car... that is based on a FWD platform. You're asking two different questions - one about platform architecture and another about FWD-biased vs. RWD-biased AWD systems. From what I can tell, Quattro and SH-AWD are the two best on the market. Does that make you happy? Why are you getting so personal here?

I'm not saying Quattro is an FWD-biased or based system. It's put on FWD cars to make them drive better.

Who is pretending? Not me.

Interesting. So all these years beating up Lexus and other FWD cars was wrong? Lol.. Cause now it seems since it's Audi, FWD is acceptable.

Interesting.

Mike.....what made the 1Gen LS superb was not that it caught the Germans with their pants down (although that did, in fact, happen) but simply the excellence of its own design and build quality. The fact that the front brake rotors sometimes warped from the car's heavy weight and too-small rotor size was only one minor blip on an otherwise excellent car. The LS430 was even better in some ways. The LS460 improved on the refinement/noise isolation even more, but, because of the lower-profile tires and stiffer underpinnings, lost some ride comfort....which is important to many LS buyers (not necessarily you, of course, with your F-Sport package)

For everyday mundane FWD is A okay as long as it isn't marketed as a sports car. Now if lexus were to go and make es-f, throw in some power keep it strictly FWD I would be upset. But since they wont I see no issue. The issue here of audi vs acura is audi is fwd derived... However acuras are usually FWD only and provide no real performance models, however that fwd derrived audi can come with a w12 or a screaming 4.2 v8 etc...

Its fans will defend it as an AWD car, but that's simply not true nor realistic. It's a front drive platform with Quattro. The platform has been optimized for Quattro, but it's still FWD derived, which puts the engine in front of the axles and has FWD proportions. Also available in FWD in other markets.

FWD is fine when you're buying an RX, ES, A4, etc..., but when you're spending $80k+ for a flagship sedan, it's not acceptable. Forget the Bentleys, they're even worse. I see them around, laughably sad that someone paid $200k for what proportionally looks like a big FWD VW.

One disadvantage is that since the platform is FWD derived, the engine sits in front of the axle. When you get the big engines like in the A8, that will cause understeer and other handling/stability deficiencies when changing direction at high speeds. Second visually the car's proportions are negatively impacted, with long front overhangs, shorter axle to dash distance, and other differences from RWD proportioned cars that make it look more plebian (the A8 suffers notably with this).

Third you don't need AWD all the time, in many places (i.e. west coast) not at all. So you're driving around in a car with all the added weight and complexity of an AWD system, when a RWD version would provide even more entertainment with less complexity. The reason you're driving around in an A8 in southern California with AWD is because Audi would be embarrassed to offer the A8 without it - because it would be FWD, which doesn't have a good image and is inferior dynamically. BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes don't have to worry about this, since their non-AWD versions are still respectable RWD cars.

Back to the A8 specifically, I have never been impressed by the ones I've seen (pre-refresh, not seen a post refresh yet). They have almost no presence outside the front end, with a body and proportions that look like a big VW family sedan. A8 lags the LS in surfacing quality, paint finish, and proportions.

Attachment 496869

The interiors of both are fine, as is to be expected at these prices, but the A8 like most German cars is firm inside, whereas the LS is much more plush in that surfaces feel softer and more wielding.

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The top of the doors for example are padded soft stitched leather on the Lexus, whereas the A8 and even new S-class are borderline hard moulded material. The arm rests on the LS are very soft padded and nicely stitched leather, again very firm in the A8 in comparison.

Then you add in the more obvious disadvantages like less dependability, worse long term resale value, and higher price to buy for what isn't really a better car in the first place and it's why I gave the A8 a lower score. I like to say time reveals all truths, and over and over again it has revealed that the LS is one of the best if not best cars in the segment. LS400 today over any of its rivals of the time. LS430 today over similar era S-class. LS460 today over 2006+ S-class (look how rapidly that big glorified German Chrysler has aged and depreciated). The A8 is certainly no competition in this regard. 5-6 years from now it will be another junk car no one will touch. The LS meanwhile...

who cares if it is fwd, rwd or awd? audis make fine cars. great build quality, great ride, and just a great car.

what a beautiful car. my favorite audi
http://grubbsphoto.files.wordpress.c...udi-rs7-15.jpg

FWD based or not, an S8 will run circles around the LS whether its on the dragstrip or on a track.

Also Lexus has much to learn about AWD, their systems are very average.
They are also the ONLY automaker that has the AWD version putting out less power due to poor platform engineering.
Rwd LS 386hp vs AWD LS 360hp = very weak

No offense, but where on Earth is Canuckistan? Is that supposed to be a joke? Or is that the name of a town?

Vancouver Canada, the home of the Canucks

hlee, i deleted your post about hip/hop and african american buyers. any discussion or posts in those areas, whether factual or not, inevitably leads to arguments, and they're not relevant to this thread anyway.

thank you.

Whats so average about Lexus/Toyota AWD systems? Is LS designed to compete with S8?

As much as I know, Audi buys its AWD components off the market, and some of them are from Toyota based companies such as JTEKT Torsen (Torsen are for their full time awd, other ones are part-time Haldex based)

Toyota probably makes most AWD vehicles in the world, number of AWD cars sold by Toyota probably outsells complete Audi brand. However they will probably never make AWD based performance vehicles, as they have RWD cars for that. So you will likely not see high performance AWD vehicle (F brand) from Lexus.

This is not a jab at Audi, but nevertheless, Audi does produce a lot of FWD cars and AWD is their way making their platforms more luxurious, just like what Lexus did with NX for instance.

The LS is still built like a tank.

Very few cars left like that..

hmmmm, I for one don't care about sales numbers in general.

Currently considering getting a late model LS, does this mean I can probably swing a really good deal on a pre-owned car? I'm thinking around $40k budget wise would that get me a nice LS for a daily?

What model years are the best for the LS to get? If I get one will probably for the the "L" model and of course it has to be white :)

The new LS460 F-sport looks amazing btw, saw one the other day and it just looks sick!


P.S. Sorry I did not read all 11 pages but saw a few jab remarks about the A8. I recently had my other Audi in for service and they gave me an A8 loaner for the week. After spending serious seat time in that car, I can tell you it's an AMAZING machine. The comfort level from the massage/heated/air cool seats to all the high tech gadgets to help you drive safely was super cool. I rarely drive cars with all this high tech stuff in luxury cars so it was quite a neat experience. The A8 is not the fastest but plenty fast for getting around town and speeding up on ramps. I got great gas mileage and the leg room in the back rivals most SUV's. I think price tag on a new A8 is around $90k and the S8 around $125k which don't make them cheap but I would hardly call them junk or garbage. Not sure I would buy one out of warranty though given all the headaches I've had with my vintage 05 s4. I can only imagine what dealers would charge to fix a problem on the A8.

The LS is a great platform and the key factor it's got over the competitors is RELIABILITY! I'm the sure LS is also expensive to fix out of warranty but at least Lexus has a better reputation for resale.

^^^ This... Mr. Burns is spot on...:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Not only the LS but this holds true on every other Lexus model down the lineup.

<<<@!1!@>>>

Reminds me about the GS swinging pendulum commercial (fwd for the a6):D