Sept 2013 Sales Thread
Well the buyer of a C-Class is not looking at a GS, but they are certainly going to consider the CLA - same audience.
And an A6 buyer won't be shopping for a A8, but they will consider the A7 - same audience.
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As much as I love my GS, I will admit that rear seat room is tight. 3 adults in the back is a no go, and even with 4 room behind the seat for knees is tight. My 2010 ES by example had no issues in the rear seats, and the 2013 ES certainly would not. Now...don't get me wrong I likely will never drive an ES again now that I have the GS.
I think the main reason for the GS' comparatively low sales is that they have the ES. That non-enthusiast buyer that wanders in looking for a "midsize sedan" buys the ES at Lexus, and they buy a 528 or a E350 or A6 if they are at those dealers. Look at the A6 vs the A7 and how low the A7's sales figures are, its the vehicle in the lineup that really only an enthusiast is going to pony up for over the A6.
If Lexus did away with the ES and added a lower priced entry to the GS line that could be had around $50k their sales figures would be a lot more competitive. Of course, they aren't going to do that.
I will tell ya what though, I am seeing 4GS's everywhere now just within the past 2-3 months. They are breaking through. I see at least one every day now.
As for the E class...they have a successful coupe as well as the sedans, plus the wagon. Even if you say "The V8 is only 400 units, the wagon is only 300 units, the AMG is only 100 units, the coupe is only 1,000 units. Right there is 1800 units. You subtract that from the high sales volume and you have volume similar to the 5 series. The 5 series has four engine options, a wagon. Say wagon sales are 300 units, the M5 sells 100 units maybe, the 550 sells 400 units, thats 800 units. back that off the volume and compare.
I think the main reason for the GS' comparatively low sales is that they have the ES. That non-enthusiast buyer that wanders in looking for a "midsize sedan" buys the ES at Lexus, and they buy a 528 or a E350 or A6 if they are at those dealers. Look at the A6 vs the A7 and how low the A7's sales figures are, its the vehicle in the lineup that really only an enthusiast is going to pony up for over the A6.
If Lexus did away with the ES and added a lower priced entry to the GS line that could be had around $50k their sales figures would be a lot more competitive. Of course, they aren't going to do that.
I will tell ya what though, I am seeing 4GS's everywhere now just within the past 2-3 months. They are breaking through. I see at least one every day now.
As for the E class...they have a successful coupe as well as the sedans, plus the wagon. Even if you say "The V8 is only 400 units, the wagon is only 300 units, the AMG is only 100 units, the coupe is only 1,000 units. Right there is 1800 units. You subtract that from the high sales volume and you have volume similar to the 5 series. The 5 series has four engine options, a wagon. Say wagon sales are 300 units, the M5 sells 100 units maybe, the 550 sells 400 units, thats 800 units. back that off the volume and compare.
Last edited by SW17LS; Oct 8, 2013 at 04:28 PM.
Now I can see what you meant by similar size, but at the same time I think we are talking about more like coupe designs vs full sedan. I guess it's debatable but I am not sure if people cross shop. People who want the styling for sure would go with the coupe design, but people who need space, they would think the coupe rear entry room / cabin space are too small (c vs cla, e vs cls, a6 vs a7), which is the whole idea on the idea
but on gs vs es, the gs is not close to be a coupe design at all so it makes it a bit more mixed together?
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sorry i missed this post
Now I can see what you meant by similar size, but at the same time I think we are talking about more like coupe designs vs full sedan. I guess it's debatable but I am not sure if people cross shop. People who want the styling for sure would go with the coupe design, but people who need space, they would think the coupe rear entry room / cabin space are too small (c vs cla, e vs cls, a6 vs a7), which is the whole idea on the idea
but on gs vs es, the gs is not close to be a coupe design at all so it makes it a bit more mixed together?
Now I can see what you meant by similar size, but at the same time I think we are talking about more like coupe designs vs full sedan. I guess it's debatable but I am not sure if people cross shop. People who want the styling for sure would go with the coupe design, but people who need space, they would think the coupe rear entry room / cabin space are too small (c vs cla, e vs cls, a6 vs a7), which is the whole idea on the idea
but on gs vs es, the gs is not close to be a coupe design at all so it makes it a bit more mixed together?
As it is currently, I cant think of any brand releasing such close competitors like MB did for CLA and C class.
I cant imagine many people not cross-shopping CLA vs C class. They are a lot more similar than ES and GS. ES has a lot bigger advantage in both price and space compared to GS, while CLA vs C class, they are pretty similar.
As it is currently, I cant think of any brand releasing such close competitors like MB did for CLA and C class.
As it is currently, I cant think of any brand releasing such close competitors like MB did for CLA and C class.
Lead Lap
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From: Washington
I cant imagine many people not cross-shopping CLA vs C class. They are a lot more similar than ES and GS. ES has a lot bigger advantage in both price and space compared to GS, while CLA vs C class, they are pretty similar.
As it is currently, I cant think of any brand releasing such close competitors like MB did for CLA and C class.
As it is currently, I cant think of any brand releasing such close competitors like MB did for CLA and C class.
It does, but rear cabin space isn't the most important thing to a lot of people who currently shop C-classes. Some people see they can get into a MB for cheaper, others see they can get a MB with more options by moving down a step.
People are for cross shopping the two, especially for the time being until the next-gen C-class arrives in a year in moves a bit upmarket. BMW's 1-series sedan and Audi's A3 sedan will have much of the same effect.
It does, but rear cabin space isn't the most important thing to a lot of people who currently shop C-classes. Some people see they can get into a MB for cheaper, others see they can get a MB with more options by moving down a step.
It does, but rear cabin space isn't the most important thing to a lot of people who currently shop C-classes. Some people see they can get into a MB for cheaper, others see they can get a MB with more options by moving down a step.
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From: Florida
I always said its not the car that is the problem but rather a class that it's selling in. Luxury mid size is a crown for 90% of the successful people and no body has better image that says "I succeeded" than MB or BMW. Even if you buy new mid size Maserati you would not get that kind of recognition, you would be the odd one. So GS is missing the experience of ownership that E-class and 5 series bring.
What Lexus has to worry about is not GS but Audi in general, A4 is selling stronger or as strong as new IS and A6 did jump over GS. Next A4/A5 and Q SUVs are something Lexus should be afraid of.
Pole Position
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From: Irvine, CA - Madrid, ES
As much as I love my GS, I will admit that rear seat room is tight. 3 adults in the back is a no go, and even with 4 room behind the seat for knees is tight. My 2010 ES by example had no issues in the rear seats, and the 2013 ES certainly would not. Now...don't get me wrong I likely will never drive an ES again now that I have the GS.
I think the main reason for the GS' comparatively low sales is that they have the ES. That non-enthusiast buyer that wanders in looking for a "midsize sedan" buys the ES at Lexus, and they buy a 528 or a E350 or A6 if they are at those dealers. Look at the A6 vs the A7 and how low the A7's sales figures are, its the vehicle in the lineup that really only an enthusiast is going to pony up for over the A6.
If Lexus did away with the ES and added a lower priced entry to the GS line that could be had around $50k their sales figures would be a lot more competitive. Of course, they aren't going to do that.
I will tell ya what though, I am seeing 4GS's everywhere now just within the past 2-3 months. They are breaking through. I see at least one every day now.
As for the E class...they have a successful coupe as well as the sedans, plus the wagon. Even if you say "The V8 is only 400 units, the wagon is only 300 units, the AMG is only 100 units, the coupe is only 1,000 units. Right there is 1800 units. You subtract that from the high sales volume and you have volume similar to the 5 series. The 5 series has four engine options, a wagon. Say wagon sales are 300 units, the M5 sells 100 units maybe, the 550 sells 400 units, thats 800 units. back that off the volume and compare.
I think the main reason for the GS' comparatively low sales is that they have the ES. That non-enthusiast buyer that wanders in looking for a "midsize sedan" buys the ES at Lexus, and they buy a 528 or a E350 or A6 if they are at those dealers. Look at the A6 vs the A7 and how low the A7's sales figures are, its the vehicle in the lineup that really only an enthusiast is going to pony up for over the A6.
If Lexus did away with the ES and added a lower priced entry to the GS line that could be had around $50k their sales figures would be a lot more competitive. Of course, they aren't going to do that.
I will tell ya what though, I am seeing 4GS's everywhere now just within the past 2-3 months. They are breaking through. I see at least one every day now.
As for the E class...they have a successful coupe as well as the sedans, plus the wagon. Even if you say "The V8 is only 400 units, the wagon is only 300 units, the AMG is only 100 units, the coupe is only 1,000 units. Right there is 1800 units. You subtract that from the high sales volume and you have volume similar to the 5 series. The 5 series has four engine options, a wagon. Say wagon sales are 300 units, the M5 sells 100 units maybe, the 550 sells 400 units, thats 800 units. back that off the volume and compare.
I don't think we should focus on the sales between the ES and GS since they are not in the same segment whatsoever.
I would think of it as Lexus has two sedans for the same segment (entry luxury sedan), the IS for car enthusiast looking for performance, handling over comfortability (ES).
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A lower sticker price point of the GS (GS250, GS300h) could help to boost its sales. Now, we all know that's not happening in the near future. Not sure why Lexus US executives didn't bring over the IS300h, GS300h and GS250. Not all 5 series, E class are 535i or E350 CGI.
I don't think we should focus on the sales between the ES and GS since they are not in the same segment whatsoever.
I don't think we should focus on the sales between the ES and GS since they are not in the same segment whatsoever.
Look at me, I am a two time ES driver who moved up to the GS. I know many people who have crossed shopped the GS and ES and 5 series, etc. Look at the "GS vs ES" threads in this forum.
With Mercedes' and BMW's continued product onslaught, I just don't see Lexus ever returning to the #1 position in sales. Quite frankly, I'm not sure that I'd want to see them producing as many models as Mercedes has right now, so I'm not bothered by it.
Is this the first year that Audi has overtaken Infiniti? Not much longer before they overtake Acura - will happen in 2014, for sure.
Is this the first year that Audi has overtaken Infiniti? Not much longer before they overtake Acura - will happen in 2014, for sure.
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With Mercedes' and BMW's continued product onslaught, I just don't see Lexus ever returning to the #1 position in sales. Quite frankly, I'm not sure that I'd want to see them producing as many models as Mercedes has right now, so I'm not bothered by it.
Is this the first year that Audi has overtaken Infiniti? Not much longer before they overtake Acura - will happen in 2014, for sure.
Is this the first year that Audi has overtaken Infiniti? Not much longer before they overtake Acura - will happen in 2014, for sure.
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2011
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From: Irvine, CA - Madrid, ES
I think you're wrong about the GS and ES not being in the same segment. They don't bring lower priced GS variants because they already have that customer served with the ES.
Look at me, I am a two time ES driver who moved up to the GS. I know many people who have crossed shopped the GS and ES and 5 series, etc. Look at the "GS vs ES" threads in this forum.
Look at me, I am a two time ES driver who moved up to the GS. I know many people who have crossed shopped the GS and ES and 5 series, etc. Look at the "GS vs ES" threads in this forum.
The ES even came out first than the GS. People should think in this way:
ES -> LS (comfort oriented)
IS -> GS (performance oriented)