The Lincoln Discussion
Yes mmarshall, but that was a dying market (literally).
Lincoln's problem is they want to capture a market that doesn't have the money to purchase their cars. They want young professionals (<40) earning 6 figures... well, that's a small demographic to begin with, let alone that these problem are intelligent enough to see that the Fusion is 95% the car that the MKZ is. Look at the video - everything they mention is a pure "luxury" item that any car (the Fusion) will do fine without. Not to mention that the car they compare to, the ES, is not primarily sold to the same demographic they are marketing to!
At least Cadillac understands who buys their cars (>40 white men) and, while in my young opinion, their styling is about half a decade past its glory, it works for their demographic because tastes are slow to change as one gets older.
Who really likes the styling of this Lincoln? It recalls their older cars, sure, but the grille does not follow modern tastes of large openings seperating from the headlights to give the car width. Lincoln's grille makes the car look narrow and creates a "beak", and the car doesn't have sporty proportions to begin with due to FWD platform. The rear deck height is in the clouds, which allows a steeper rake on the rear glass to increase headroom, but makes it look very boxy, albeit camouflaged decently by the gigantic diffuser (can you even call that a diffuser?)
Lincoln is lost and they don't know it. I suppose if they want an alternative to the ES, they certainly have one. But people don't buy the ES for the features of the ES per se (else they'd get a GS), they buy it because it's a Lexus - that is, reliability and dealership experience. Lincoln doesn't (yet) compare on the first point, and the second point is no where in sight.
Lincoln's problem is they want to capture a market that doesn't have the money to purchase their cars. They want young professionals (<40) earning 6 figures... well, that's a small demographic to begin with, let alone that these problem are intelligent enough to see that the Fusion is 95% the car that the MKZ is. Look at the video - everything they mention is a pure "luxury" item that any car (the Fusion) will do fine without. Not to mention that the car they compare to, the ES, is not primarily sold to the same demographic they are marketing to!
At least Cadillac understands who buys their cars (>40 white men) and, while in my young opinion, their styling is about half a decade past its glory, it works for their demographic because tastes are slow to change as one gets older.
Who really likes the styling of this Lincoln? It recalls their older cars, sure, but the grille does not follow modern tastes of large openings seperating from the headlights to give the car width. Lincoln's grille makes the car look narrow and creates a "beak", and the car doesn't have sporty proportions to begin with due to FWD platform. The rear deck height is in the clouds, which allows a steeper rake on the rear glass to increase headroom, but makes it look very boxy, albeit camouflaged decently by the gigantic diffuser (can you even call that a diffuser?)
Lincoln is lost and they don't know it. I suppose if they want an alternative to the ES, they certainly have one. But people don't buy the ES for the features of the ES per se (else they'd get a GS), they buy it because it's a Lexus - that is, reliability and dealership experience. Lincoln doesn't (yet) compare on the first point, and the second point is no where in sight.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: California
I respect your opinion, but don't quite see it that way. Cadillac's true "core" was clearly not those buying the RWD CTS/ATS, but the legions of (mostly) older people buying the DeVille/DTS as repeat buyers for decades. They were the ones that were effectively ignored when the DTS was dropped for the new XTS....which (admittedly has more-plush interior trim and a more efficient, modern drivetrain than the DTS, but, IMO, is otherwise NOT a adequate DTS replacement for that traditional "core" crowd.
And, of course, that group can't cross-shop Lincolns or Buicks any more either, because both of those divisions dropped their large soft-riding sedans, too. If Lincoln hadn't dropped the Town Car, many of the former DTS owners would probably have turned to it....and vice-versa. What's probably going to happen (and we're starting to see signs of it) is that we'll see more buisness for the DTS/Lucerne/Town Car in the used-car market, with vales for those models (especially clean, well-cared-for ones) appreciating in value....or at least lower rates of depreciation.
Except for maybe the fairly large number of loyal buyers with the MDX (and to a lesser extent the TL), I don't see Acura as having much of a "core" at all any more. They have simply driven away too many people with their parrot-beak grilles, awkward styling, and silly designs like the ZDX.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: California
Author Opinion
Never mind the naysayers; Lincoln is worth saving
You should always be careful about the name you choose to give your new baby. The power of association can work in many ways, not always positive.
In the case of Henry Leland, naming his new car brand after the first President he cast a vote for in 1864 seemed a jolly good idea, on paper. His pride and patriotic fervor easily overlooked the fact that the namesake was assassinated and for sure, poor Henry couldn't have known that the second most infamous Presidential assassination in US history was to take place some 70 years later in one of his offspring's back seats. Both of those world events sent shockwaves through a nation, and could easily have created a crisis of confidence that many other countries could not have recovered from. The nation did recover and grow stronger, but the Lincoln Motor Company sadly has not enjoyed the same resilience.
From a peak in the '80s, sales of Ford's luxury division have been in decline. Even last year, when all its major competitors (Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi and Cadillac) posted healthy gains, Lincoln suffered another year-over-year loss. The drop in demand came despite several new model introductions and intense marketing support. So how can a storied car marque, which given its nomenclature should be the very embodiment of integrity, strength and achievement, regain its position as the luxury car brand in the US?
Lincoln take note: Everybody thought Cadillac was on its last legs a few years ago and its now America's fastest growing luxury car company. The same people who predicted Caddy's imminent demise are now calling for the killing of Lincoln, but I think that's Mr. Magoo vision. A distinct product line up, a cohesive marketing story, confidence in its own voice and a strong, vocal commitment from the Blue Oval boys and girls could return Lincoln to leadership.
I was very impressed at the 2012 LA Auto Show when Lincoln's stand was a wonderful homage to the brands rich and celebrity-endorsed history, including Elizabeth Taylor's Continental Mark 2 with a custom interior to match her eyes. Dirty little secret No. 1: one day I hope to own a Mark 2 and make an entrance in a driveway much like Uncle Willie did in High Society. Now that's what I call glamour. But where is that appeal today?
Similar style, luxury and effortless performance were on display at Los Angeles across some 60 years of Lincoln automobiles – the trouble was though, that rich lineage hit a wall around the mid '60s and that is where the display drew a line under its history. They also hurriedly pushed these beauties off the stand after the press had seen them and replaced them with Monroney-clad new cars for the public days.
Removing the vintage cars was a mistake. Why would you sell your best story to an audience already well read on the subject and not show much-needed potential customers the DNA of your current offerings? One of the qualities of luxury is authenticity; I would suggest that is done more by an association to your past achievements than your current lease price.
Ralph Lauren once said to me that when a company's most desired product is one they built 40 years ago then that company is in trouble. Trust me, he knows a thing or two about using the glories of yesteryear to turn a tidy profit today. As the old saying goes, those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
Lincoln seems to have forgotten the lessons of its early years, when Edsel Ford acquired the company and set its sights on grace, elegance and speed. From that distinct brand philosophy was born the magnificent K series, the sexy Zephyr Coupe sedan and the glorious four-door, Continental convertible. Sadly though, it seems today Lincoln is repeating the history of the '80s, little more than badge-engineered versions of the main Ford stable.
Whilst I understand the economics of the car business – it is first and foremost a business, after all – if you have aspirations to own a luxury brand, you better make sure you know what luxury means. Luxury lives in the allure of the form, not the rationale of function. It is tempting for sure to raid the extensive Ford part bins for the latest tech whiz bang, but luxury buyers take cutting edge innovation for granted. It's the price of entry into this segment. What Lincoln needs to do is wrap its technical ability up in a seductive design and a brand statement that says, "I made a cool and intelligent choice in buying this car." A luxury brand captivates by its promise, not its price.
Some of Lincoln's past associations may have been inglorious, but to be fair, many more spoke to decades of leadership and proud confidence. When the Lincoln Mark 2 was introduced, it cost more than a very royal Rolls-Royce, it looked sexier than a svelte Italian job and was as well built as a German butcher's son. Given all the resources at Dearborn's disposal it doesn't seem a quantum leap to go back to those associations and own its future. Ford engineers are amongst the best in the world and Jim Farley is a highly acclaimed and likeable marketer; the bench strength is most certainly there. As a founding father of the US auto industry, the Lincoln Motor Company needs to remember what made it great, take those things and put a fresh, modern twist on it. Audi wasn't always the cool brand it is today. Only a few decades ago it was the poor, unloved cousin of the Germany car industry. Lincoln should be the American Audi. It has a longer and richer history, and a recognition level that makes it a household name.
By the time Lincoln celebrates its centenary year in 2017, there is no reason why it should not have as many again bright years ahead of it. But it needs the current talented team to breathe confidence and aspiration into the brand. Reaching the ripe old age of 100 is a cause for celebration, but only if they have in place a full car line of models people "ooh" and "aaah" over, teens want to own one day and enthusiasts believe are just as worthy of the badge today as the collectables of yesterday.
In other words, as Abraham Lincoln, the man whose name was taken to form this car company, said,"In the end its not the years in your life that count, it's the life in your years." If the brand accepts that philosophy I am confident the baby will continue to develop as a healthy growing boy.
In the case of Henry Leland, naming his new car brand after the first President he cast a vote for in 1864 seemed a jolly good idea, on paper. His pride and patriotic fervor easily overlooked the fact that the namesake was assassinated and for sure, poor Henry couldn't have known that the second most infamous Presidential assassination in US history was to take place some 70 years later in one of his offspring's back seats. Both of those world events sent shockwaves through a nation, and could easily have created a crisis of confidence that many other countries could not have recovered from. The nation did recover and grow stronger, but the Lincoln Motor Company sadly has not enjoyed the same resilience.
From a peak in the '80s, sales of Ford's luxury division have been in decline. Even last year, when all its major competitors (Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi and Cadillac) posted healthy gains, Lincoln suffered another year-over-year loss. The drop in demand came despite several new model introductions and intense marketing support. So how can a storied car marque, which given its nomenclature should be the very embodiment of integrity, strength and achievement, regain its position as the luxury car brand in the US?
Lincoln take note: Everybody thought Cadillac was on its last legs a few years ago and its now America's fastest growing luxury car company. The same people who predicted Caddy's imminent demise are now calling for the killing of Lincoln, but I think that's Mr. Magoo vision. A distinct product line up, a cohesive marketing story, confidence in its own voice and a strong, vocal commitment from the Blue Oval boys and girls could return Lincoln to leadership.
I was very impressed at the 2012 LA Auto Show when Lincoln's stand was a wonderful homage to the brands rich and celebrity-endorsed history, including Elizabeth Taylor's Continental Mark 2 with a custom interior to match her eyes. Dirty little secret No. 1: one day I hope to own a Mark 2 and make an entrance in a driveway much like Uncle Willie did in High Society. Now that's what I call glamour. But where is that appeal today?
Similar style, luxury and effortless performance were on display at Los Angeles across some 60 years of Lincoln automobiles – the trouble was though, that rich lineage hit a wall around the mid '60s and that is where the display drew a line under its history. They also hurriedly pushed these beauties off the stand after the press had seen them and replaced them with Monroney-clad new cars for the public days.
Removing the vintage cars was a mistake. Why would you sell your best story to an audience already well read on the subject and not show much-needed potential customers the DNA of your current offerings? One of the qualities of luxury is authenticity; I would suggest that is done more by an association to your past achievements than your current lease price.
Ralph Lauren once said to me that when a company's most desired product is one they built 40 years ago then that company is in trouble. Trust me, he knows a thing or two about using the glories of yesteryear to turn a tidy profit today. As the old saying goes, those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
Lincoln seems to have forgotten the lessons of its early years, when Edsel Ford acquired the company and set its sights on grace, elegance and speed. From that distinct brand philosophy was born the magnificent K series, the sexy Zephyr Coupe sedan and the glorious four-door, Continental convertible. Sadly though, it seems today Lincoln is repeating the history of the '80s, little more than badge-engineered versions of the main Ford stable.
Whilst I understand the economics of the car business – it is first and foremost a business, after all – if you have aspirations to own a luxury brand, you better make sure you know what luxury means. Luxury lives in the allure of the form, not the rationale of function. It is tempting for sure to raid the extensive Ford part bins for the latest tech whiz bang, but luxury buyers take cutting edge innovation for granted. It's the price of entry into this segment. What Lincoln needs to do is wrap its technical ability up in a seductive design and a brand statement that says, "I made a cool and intelligent choice in buying this car." A luxury brand captivates by its promise, not its price.
Some of Lincoln's past associations may have been inglorious, but to be fair, many more spoke to decades of leadership and proud confidence. When the Lincoln Mark 2 was introduced, it cost more than a very royal Rolls-Royce, it looked sexier than a svelte Italian job and was as well built as a German butcher's son. Given all the resources at Dearborn's disposal it doesn't seem a quantum leap to go back to those associations and own its future. Ford engineers are amongst the best in the world and Jim Farley is a highly acclaimed and likeable marketer; the bench strength is most certainly there. As a founding father of the US auto industry, the Lincoln Motor Company needs to remember what made it great, take those things and put a fresh, modern twist on it. Audi wasn't always the cool brand it is today. Only a few decades ago it was the poor, unloved cousin of the Germany car industry. Lincoln should be the American Audi. It has a longer and richer history, and a recognition level that makes it a household name.
By the time Lincoln celebrates its centenary year in 2017, there is no reason why it should not have as many again bright years ahead of it. But it needs the current talented team to breathe confidence and aspiration into the brand. Reaching the ripe old age of 100 is a cause for celebration, but only if they have in place a full car line of models people "ooh" and "aaah" over, teens want to own one day and enthusiasts believe are just as worthy of the badge today as the collectables of yesterday.
In other words, as Abraham Lincoln, the man whose name was taken to form this car company, said,"In the end its not the years in your life that count, it's the life in your years." If the brand accepts that philosophy I am confident the baby will continue to develop as a healthy growing boy.
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Jan 2014
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From: CA
Lincoln Luxury Cross Over SUV'S start at 39,000+. That is not a segment they want to be in with Lexus,Acura,Infiniti,BMW,and Audi all making better SUVS.
Their sedans go from 36-60k....
Who the Hell is going to pay 36-43k for a 'Entry Level Lincoln Sedan' when the segment is so competitive with a half dozen Luxury Brands who have better vehicles within that price range?
And if you are going 50k+... why will anyone go for Lincoln over the true 50k+ Giants?
Their sedans go from 36-60k....
Who the Hell is going to pay 36-43k for a 'Entry Level Lincoln Sedan' when the segment is so competitive with a half dozen Luxury Brands who have better vehicles within that price range?
And if you are going 50k+... why will anyone go for Lincoln over the true 50k+ Giants?
plenty of reasons, but i expect the main one is if a buyer is already very comfortable with ford vehicles they might 'step up' to lincoln and see it as logical/comfortable/desirable.
in my area there's a couple of huge ford/lincoln dealerships but no infiniti/lexus/mercedes/audi. there is a porsche/bmw dealer though.
in my area there's a couple of huge ford/lincoln dealerships but no infiniti/lexus/mercedes/audi. there is a porsche/bmw dealer though.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Lake Ray Hubbard
What happened with Lincoln was that Ford focused on its other acquisitions and just allowed Lincoln to be pulled along in the wake without any real effort to establish market share...then they sold everything off as part of reorganizing the company. Good because it kept them from having to accept federal bailout money (although they DID accept a loan for other reasons, but that is a discussion for a different time), but also negative because now that it had dumped all of its attractive euro mistresses, it was left with a much-aged brand in need of an extensive overhaul and without a clear position in the industry. You also have to consider that they killed off their real bread and butter - the town car. This vehicle is synonymous with Lincoln. You think Lincoln and one of two images pops into your head - a town car or a navigator. Being able to fully option out an Expedition or cross brands over to Caddy really decimated the sales of the Navigator. Also killing off the town car in the interest of creating new an more exciting vehicles to draw in a younger customer base killed off their fleet sales, which arguably accounted for half of their total volume. Also don't forget that Ford only sells Lincoln domestically, which is not going to help matters. Especially with everyone going global. Ford has a lot of work to do to revitalize Lincoln, unless they plan to allow it to die off like Mercury, and just use it as a huge tax write-off against the money they owe the Feds.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,521
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
At the D.C auto show yesterday (I spent several hours there yesterday afternoon, and will also be going back next week), the Lincoln reps were not only very nice but also honest and forthright. I spoke with them about several Lincoln-related subjects for about 15 minutes or so, and, unlike the rather arrogant Lincoln reps at last year's show, they now freely admit that dropping the Town Car was a mistake (something I have said repeatedly for several years). The official Lincoln display area, even with the new MKC prototype revolving up on a turntable, was deader than a cemetary. Virtually NO ONE was there looking at ANY of their products....especially at the Town Car's MKS replacement, which I have panned a number of times. There weren't even any reps up on the turntable doing their thing with those typical puppet-like, cue-card narrations.
I WILL give the Lincoln display area one award, though. The new MKC up on the turntable was painted an absolutely GORGEOUS color....IMO, one of the most stunning colors at the show. They call it Tahiti Pearl, but is is actually a darkish purple Amythist color...and, according to the reps, will be an actual production color this year (a sample of it was mounted on the wall with the other Lincoln factory colors this year). Purple (and especially Amythist) has long been my personal favorite automotive color, though often ignored by the auto manufacturers. Dodge had a bright-purple Challenger Hemi there at the show in the classic 1970-1971 Plum Crazy color I remember from my high school/college days....it is also now a factory option. And a Dodge dealer near my house has a purple Charger R/T sitting right out on the lot.
Unfortunately, the new Lincoln Navigator (something I did want to see and check out) was not at the D.C. show...nor will it be brought in later next week. Nor, surprisingly, according to the Lincoln reps there, was it at the Detroit show either. The reps there said they are planning to introduce it later in the year at the Chicago auto show.
I WILL give the Lincoln display area one award, though. The new MKC up on the turntable was painted an absolutely GORGEOUS color....IMO, one of the most stunning colors at the show. They call it Tahiti Pearl, but is is actually a darkish purple Amythist color...and, according to the reps, will be an actual production color this year (a sample of it was mounted on the wall with the other Lincoln factory colors this year). Purple (and especially Amythist) has long been my personal favorite automotive color, though often ignored by the auto manufacturers. Dodge had a bright-purple Challenger Hemi there at the show in the classic 1970-1971 Plum Crazy color I remember from my high school/college days....it is also now a factory option. And a Dodge dealer near my house has a purple Charger R/T sitting right out on the lot.
Unfortunately, the new Lincoln Navigator (something I did want to see and check out) was not at the D.C. show...nor will it be brought in later next week. Nor, surprisingly, according to the Lincoln reps there, was it at the Detroit show either. The reps there said they are planning to introduce it later in the year at the Chicago auto show.
Last edited by mmarshall; Jan 25, 2014 at 09:48 AM.
Lead Lap
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From: FL :(
Lincoln actually considers the MKT the replacement for the Town Car. I tried selling Lincolns for a short time and it is very hard to get somebody out of a Town Car into an MKS or MKT. I did for some reason get quite a few out of Town Cars and into MKZs.
I think Lincoln will have something based off of the 2015 Mustang in the future. Everybody who works in any kind of way with Ford or Lincoln will admit they need a RWD car in the line up.
I think Lincoln will have something based off of the 2015 Mustang in the future. Everybody who works in any kind of way with Ford or Lincoln will admit they need a RWD car in the line up.
Thread Starter
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From: California
Lexus Fanatic
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Among other things, that's the kind of thinking that got them in the trouble they are in today.
In all fairness, the MKS did have one good selling point over the Town Car...an AWD option for bad weather. The RWD Town Car, even with electronic traction-aids, was not exactly a snow-bunny. But, in general, I agree...the MKS was simply an inadequate replacement. It couldn't equal the Town Car's ride comfort, noise level, or the general sense of driving a luxury-car.
The new 2Gen MKZ tries to wow with its slick space-age styling inside and out, but, in my review, I actually found it rather disappointing. The console touch-controls for radio/climate control, IMO, were awkward, and the car did not have much of what I would call an upmarket feel on the road. I actually had a MUCH better opinion of its own brother Ford Fusion, which, on the road, is a real class act, and, IMO, one of the best values in a mid-size car today.
At one time, they did have something off a RWD Mustang platform...the LS of 10-15 years ago. Nice car...but it was poorly marketed, generally unreliable, and Lincoln, despite a lot of pressure from the auto press and potential customers, did not offer the V8/5MT version it should have to compete with the BMW 540i/545i-series. The 5MT was restricted to V6 Sport-Package versions....meaning that it was competing only with the BMW 528i/530i.
I tried selling Lincolns for a short time and it is very hard to get somebody out of a Town Car into an MKS or MKT.
I did for some reason get quite a few out of Town Cars and into MKZs.
I think Lincoln will have something based off of the 2015 Mustang in the future. Everybody who works in any kind of way with Ford or Lincoln will admit they need a RWD car in the line up.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,574
Likes: 282
From: Illinois
At the D.C auto show yesterday (I spent several hours there yesterday afternoon, and will also be going back next week), the Lincoln reps were not only very nice but also honest and forthright. I spoke with them about several Lincoln-related subjects for about 15 minutes or so, and, unlike the rather arrogant Lincoln reps at last year's show, they now freely admit that dropping the Town Car was a mistake (something I have said repeatedly for several years). The official Lincoln display area, even with the new MKC prototype revolving up on a turntable, was deader than a cemetary. Virtually NO ONE was there looking at ANY of their products....especially at the Town Car's MKS replacement, which I have panned a number of times. There weren't even any reps up on the turntable doing their thing with those typical puppet-like, cue-card narrations.
I WILL give the Lincoln display area one award, though. The new MKC up on the turntable was painted an absolutely GORGEOUS color....IMO, one of the most stunning colors at the show. They call it Tahiti Pearl, but is is actually a darkish purple Amythist color...and, according to the reps, will be an actual production color this year (a sample of it was mounted on the wall with the other Lincoln factory colors this year). Purple (and especially Amythist) has long been my personal favorite automotive color, though often ignored by the auto manufacturers. Dodge had a bright-purple Challenger Hemi there at the show in the classic 1970-1971 Plum Crazy color I remember from my high school/college days....it is also now a factory option. And a Dodge dealer near my house has a purple Charger R/T sitting right out on the lot.
Unfortunately, the new Lincoln Navigator (something I did want to see and check out) was not at the D.C. show...nor will it be brought in later next week. Nor, surprisingly, according to the Lincoln reps there, was it at the Detroit show either. The reps there said they are planning to introduce it later in the year at the Chicago auto show.
I WILL give the Lincoln display area one award, though. The new MKC up on the turntable was painted an absolutely GORGEOUS color....IMO, one of the most stunning colors at the show. They call it Tahiti Pearl, but is is actually a darkish purple Amythist color...and, according to the reps, will be an actual production color this year (a sample of it was mounted on the wall with the other Lincoln factory colors this year). Purple (and especially Amythist) has long been my personal favorite automotive color, though often ignored by the auto manufacturers. Dodge had a bright-purple Challenger Hemi there at the show in the classic 1970-1971 Plum Crazy color I remember from my high school/college days....it is also now a factory option. And a Dodge dealer near my house has a purple Charger R/T sitting right out on the lot.
Unfortunately, the new Lincoln Navigator (something I did want to see and check out) was not at the D.C. show...nor will it be brought in later next week. Nor, surprisingly, according to the Lincoln reps there, was it at the Detroit show either. The reps there said they are planning to introduce it later in the year at the Chicago auto show.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
To be fair, though, what I saw was on a weekday. Traffic, at that the D.C. show, ALWAYS goes up noticeably on weekends.
Lexus Fanatic
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From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
You're pretty much correct.....but Cadillac replacing the DTS with the XTS is pretty much in the same category. The XTS admittedly has a nicer interior than the DTS (notwithstanding the clumsy CUE system), and the 6AT is a great improvement over the DTS's 4AT, but the XTS, in comparison, rides and drives like an econobox.