Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Last gen was faster. It used the Otto cycle vs the Atkinson cycle. New one is not much slower really, but the big gain is in refinement, efficiency, space etc..

bagwell

here's a matching watch LOL http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-New-2013-Lexus-GS-450h-steering-wheel-Sport-Metal-Watch-Fit-Your-T-Shirt-/251258187964?hash=item3a8027b0bc&item=251258187964&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

When I run faster does the speedometer match my speed?

trexlexus

Lexus needs to hurry up and start offering dinky engines in the GS and LS. It would boost sales, and not to mention the CAFE boosts.

Unless they are coming out with monstrously good engines in a few years, getting like 99 mpg, and pumping 750 hp, i dont see why they are carrying over engines for the recent redesigns.

LexFather

I honestly agree with this statement, there is no better car getting 30 MPG average. It has won reviews overseas and is a huge step in tech over my GS 450h. It appeals to my logical side way to much. I will say the 70k price is tough especially with no F-sport goodies. We are prime candidates for this car, both loved our Lexus hybrids, moving up like the Jeffersons, like Lexus. However no F-sport here ruined it, only bamboo trim ruined it and it didn't appeal to the heart. However everytime I fill up her GS F-sport (20 MPG if lucky) that 30 MPG sounds great.

Lexus also hasn't advertised it at all, people still are clueless my car is a hybrid let alone the new one. Such gems they don't market/advertise to.

There are so few sold I wonder how resale will be cause it could be a steal in a year or two.

mmarshall

Well, if in fact that is the case (and Lexus is eventually forced to lower the price), it wouldn't be the first time in automotive history that an automaker had to lower the price to sell one of its products......even excellent ones. Sometimes the product-planners and accountants just misjudge their estimates on what they think the market will bear. That, I think, was one of the problems with the original Acura NSX....the factory 88-90K pricetag was just too high.

Outrage

The new GS 450h seems like an awfully expensive way to "save money". And, if you're not buying it to save money, then why get it? To take one-tenth of a second off your 0 to 60 time? This product doesn't make sense in the US market. It has a better place in countries where governments dictate consumer behavior more completely (Europe).

LexFather

Well again its not just price, Lexus doesn't even advertise it. How can people be interested in something they don't know exists?

FYI the NSX original price was 60k, it ended at 90k by the end of its life.

Hybrids are not just about "saving money", less emissions, quieter, this is also faster than a standard model in passing power etc. Lexus has done a poor job explaining this product to people and "hybrid" to most people does mean high MPG, not more performance.

Maybe with the exotic brands adding hybrid powertrains to their cars this image can change but I don't think so. Cars like this are just for the rare very well read consumer.

Which makes Acura's decision to bet the farm on a hybrid halo RLX beyond dumb, no one buys these cars, we are talking 50 sales a month Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Mercedes in this class(each). Why would they want to join this class this late?

Maybe if they made 400hp, on par with V-8s and delivered 30 MPG that would be saying something. V-8s have moved up up up in power so they DO NOT offer V-8 power anymore, the previous GS 450h did that but the game has moved. They simply make as much power as a V-6 today, even less with the tt versions in Porsche, Cadillac, Mercedes.

So they need to figure out to make truly more power (400hp plus) and keep it around 30 MPG. I think that would open some eyes.

Lil4X

The laws of physics mitigate against high-horsepower AND low fuel consumption. To produce big horsepower numbers, you have to somehow convert fuel to motive force and there is a direct relationship between the two. Now you CAN cheat the system a bit, either with a hybrid or a Flywheel Energy Storage module - either of which will allow power to be accumulated in a storage device and released on demand. Conversion from rotational force to electrical, then chemical energy, then back again is the long way around, but an FES system using a rotor spinning in a vacuum chamber is an electro-mechanical or a straight mechanical transfer that promises greater efficiency.

Of course, as with any storage system, whether it's in your car or your bank account, for it to work, the debt has to be repaid. That's OK in automotive use, because requirements for full power are sporadic in nature. You don't need 400 hp to cruise down the road. Theoretically, a 180 hp engine can spin up the flywheel while cruising, and rapidly dump that power to the drive wheels when the bridge calls down to the engine room for flank speed. It won't last long, but you can get a tremendous launch out of minimal horsepower and fuel consumption with this little workaround.

A couple of years ago, Porsche investigated FES for applications in their GT3R, where electric motors in the front wheels became generators during normal driving to accelerate a magnetic material impregnated carbon fiber rotor from an "idle" speed of about 24,000 rpm to 40,000 rpm. The 100lb package about the size of a hatbox consisted of a vacuum chamber and the rotor that was accelerated by the wheel motor/generators to full speed. At that point, the rotational energy of the flywheel was a paltry 0.2 KwH - not much considering the Porsche Cayenne Hybrid could store 1.7 KwH it its battery - but adequate to dump an additional 163 hp into the front wheels for about six seconds.

Six seconds is a long time in GP racing, but the advantages in power, though minimal, show up elsewhere on the track. First, by reducing fuel consumption, they found at Nurburgring that they could go further between fuel stops - even eliminating pit stops on longer courses. On shorter tracks, brake pads lasted much longer, thanks to the effects of regenerative braking - again saving time in the pits for pad changes. The best part of FES systems is that they're pretty foolproof - by eliminating the battery, many of the weak points of the battery-electric hybrid are being addressed. If they can survive in a racing environment, who knows?

Will we see this kind of technology on the street? Well, we have to admit there's still no free lunch here, but maybe we can make lunch a little cheaper. Granted, it's more applicable to racing where the throttle is often an on-off switch, and heavy demands are made on a hybrid system that would destroy a conventional hybrid battery. Regen braking does the bulk of the work, but excess engine power connected only by the road, turning those front wheels at speed makes up the system losses. Williams F1 and Kinetic Traction Systems Inc. (KTSi) are still working on FES systems not only for racing, but for rail and commercial use. Everyone's playing it pretty close to the vest right now, so don't look for breakthrough announcements, but when they come, they may turn out to be more practical than today's hybrids.

http://www.beaconpower.com/products/about-flywheels.asp

mmarshall

I'll agree with that statement....there's a lot of truth to it. And the interesting thing is that polls have shown that, with many purchases in the Prius/Insight class, the buyers weren't necessarily looking for the best possible mileage (that high-mileage can also be gotten with small VW TDI diesels) but simply making an environmental-statement. Diesels, no matter how economical or how clean the new urea-solutions make their exhaust (VW TDI's fortunately, don't need that solution), simply cannot match the near-zero emissions of most hybrids. You're generally going to pollute more with a diesel, even if the difference today is very small.


They probably aren't really betting the farm on the RLX...they know it's not a big-seller, and probably won't be even in its new form. Acura's bread-and-butter vehicle has long been the MDX. The TL still sells in acceptable numbers, but not as well as it did before the parrot-beak and goofy-looking rear end came along.


For low-RPM acceleration (which is what many Americans like) torque is a much more important measure than HP. I agree, though, that adding a good electric motor (a.k.a. hybrid) is a good way to get torque up and fuel-use down. Electric motors provide most of their torque at very low revs (max is theoretically at 0 RPM). Diesels, of course, also provide low-RPM torque, but also with low redlines, and don't have the smooth high-revving characteristics that Honda/Acura usually tries to put into their powerplants.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

brings to mind the KISS principle. the sales message / value proposition is too complicated / convoluted, so people don't "get it". i don't blame them either. it's a neat car, a technological marvel, but its appeal is extremely narrow. appeals to the conflicted... someone who wants to go fast, but hates gas prices but is willing to spend a bundle to spend less at the pump. in other words, a pretty confused customer.

ah, the predictable acura stab...

mmarshall

That gets back to what I said earlier, Paul, about many hybrid owners not necessarily buying their products to save money or gas, but to make an environmental statement. In most cases, hybrids cost significantly more than their all-gas counrterparts, though the Prius C and Insight keep that price-premium down to a minimum.
One of the rare exceptions is the 2013 Lincoln MKZ hybrid that has the same MSRP as the base gas-version. But, in general, many hybrid buyers spend the extra money not necessarily to save gas (which, if available, can also be done with diesels)....but to make a public environmental statement with pollution and have a "green" image.

Of course, I'll agree that, with cars with the GS450 hybrid's potential power, quick 0-60 times without traditional muscle-car gas-consumption could indeed be an attraction for some buyers. But with most hybrids, that's generally not the case.

spwolf

nothing confusing at all... just too high price compared to price of gas.

Everyone would like to go faster in car that spends less fuel :-)

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Speaking of gas costs....
Crude dropping the last few days.
Down to $89 today

natnut

With the way and speed Lexus is improving the hybrid tech with each succeeding generation, it won't be long before a Lexus hybrid achieves better than V8 performance with less than 4 cylinder fuel consumption. And at competitive market pricing as well.

I suspect that is Lexus' ultimate goal. It is getting closer and closer to that goal with each iteration of the hybrid synergy drivetrain. And it has come very very close with this generation's GS450h F-Sport.

And it is not just about the power. It's also how the power is delivered. The silence and smoothness of a powerful well sorted hybrid at highway speeds easily exceeds that of a pure gasoline/diesel engine of comparable power/torque. Some performance car owners want refinement with their power and don't want to feel like they're in a muscle car. A performance hybrid delivers that combination in way that even an AMG/M can't match.

So it's not just about saving fuel or saving the environment or pure performance but ultimately still about the luxury.