View Poll Results: Do you miss the "old" Lexus ways?
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll
Your thoughts on Lexus's new direction?
03-18-13, 09:45 AM
#31
I'm loving the new attitude and direction. IS, GS and LS are all better than they've ever been with options for luxury, sport, higher performance, long wheelbase, etc. With more options, everyone wins.
In the late 90's and early 00's, Lexus SUVs were all the rage and then around 2006, attention turned to new IS, GS, ES, LS and people went sedan-crazy. Then we got the LFA and a slew of new sedans, and now coupes are around the corner.
In the next 2-5 years, we are going to see a resurgence of interest and excitement around Lexus SUVs and CUVs, in my opinion. NX is coming, RX will be redesigned, GX will go unibody and the LX may also go unibody.
I am still holding out hope that the RX goes to a RWD chassis with the 4th gen, though I know it's a long shot. Lexus' new sporting intentions and imminent engine upgrades/power increases are going to make it difficult to keep a FWD RX competitive and dynamically competent against others in the segment. I'd like to see the RX on the IS chassis, the GX on the GS chassis...cost, platform and technology sharing between several of those models would be a very big win for Lexus. Sounds crazy to say now, but with RWD roots and unibody chassis, RX F and GX F could be awesome
In the late 90's and early 00's, Lexus SUVs were all the rage and then around 2006, attention turned to new IS, GS, ES, LS and people went sedan-crazy. Then we got the LFA and a slew of new sedans, and now coupes are around the corner.
In the next 2-5 years, we are going to see a resurgence of interest and excitement around Lexus SUVs and CUVs, in my opinion. NX is coming, RX will be redesigned, GX will go unibody and the LX may also go unibody.
I am still holding out hope that the RX goes to a RWD chassis with the 4th gen, though I know it's a long shot. Lexus' new sporting intentions and imminent engine upgrades/power increases are going to make it difficult to keep a FWD RX competitive and dynamically competent against others in the segment. I'd like to see the RX on the IS chassis, the GX on the GS chassis...cost, platform and technology sharing between several of those models would be a very big win for Lexus. Sounds crazy to say now, but with RWD roots and unibody chassis, RX F and GX F could be awesome
03-18-13, 09:54 AM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
When I was in my late 40's for example, I got an IS300....but it was a very narrow choice between that and the superb 4th-generation ES model. I found myself a s**ker, though, for the IS300's chronograph gauges, chrome-ball shifter, tank-like construction, and eye-catching Solar yellow color (which I bought). But, had the IS not been an option, I probably would have bought the ES with not even a second-thought.
I don't think the automotive press has too much influence on the typical ES/LS buyers, so it will take the new updated models to bring the younger buyers into the brand.
03-18-13, 10:28 AM
#33
I love the new direction.
(Wife and I were totally staring when we saw an older gentleman (65+) in a white LS F sport yesterday!
)
Again, people were b4tching b/c lexus was labeled the "maytag appliance" of automakers, are now going sporty, and people are still b4tching????
waiting impatiently for the RC (ok, that's a lame name
)
(Wife and I were totally staring when we saw an older gentleman (65+) in a white LS F sport yesterday!
)Again, people were b4tching b/c lexus was labeled the "maytag appliance" of automakers, are now going sporty, and people are still b4tching????
waiting impatiently for the RC (ok, that's a lame name
)
03-18-13, 10:35 AM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
(Just kidding)
Again, people were b4tching b/c lexus was labeled the "maytag appliance" of automakers, are now going sporty, and people are still b4tching????
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-18-13 at 10:39 AM.
03-18-13, 11:06 AM
#35
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The average age of both ES and LS new car owners has been at or above 60 for quite sme time. I'm sure that Lexus wants to lower it. The IS and new GS both indicate they are heading in that direction.
The thing with the LS average buying age might not be so problematic. Again, older generations tend to have more money, simply because they have had more time to accumulate wealth. So granted, most of the buyers are the older folks because they can afford it, while the teeny boppers cannot.
Just out of curiosity, wht is the average age of competitor flagship models? I am sure people who buy S classes and 7 series are not around the average age of 30.
03-18-13, 11:11 AM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
The thing with the LS average buying age might not be so problematic. Again, older generations tend to have more money, simply because they have had more time to accumulate wealth. So granted, most of the buyers are the older folks because they can afford it, while the teeny boppers cannot.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-19-13 at 08:56 AM.
03-18-13, 12:06 PM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
In the next 2-5 years, we are going to see a resurgence of interest and excitement around Lexus SUVs and CUVs, in my opinion. NX is coming, RX will be redesigned, GX will go unibody and the LX may also go unibody.
I am still holding out hope that the RX goes to a RWD chassis with the 4th gen, though I know it's a long shot.
03-18-13, 04:28 PM
#38
I like the new direction. I do feel though that Lexus's reaction time to bringing product and technology to the market is on the slower side. That said their marketing could be better too; needs more aggression.
First off the build quality has gotten better with Lexus. Pre 2006 models carried the brands reputation of build quality, materials, luxury, assembly, refinement and comfort. When L-Finesse began manifesting itself into the line-up, design shed its boxy shell and sleek and modern came to the lime-light. Quality though slipped dramatically. If you compared the build quality of a 2006 ES330 to that of a 2007 ES350, the materials and assembly and panel gaps in the 2007 are atrocious. A refresh in 2010 helped. Flash forward to 2013, and the GS350/450h has recaptured what was lost and then some. (The new ES is a mixed bag, offering traditional Lexus qualities, but the center console plastics are un-beffiting a "Lexus", door locks cheap, and doors don't close with the nice "Clunk" noise of past ES's). Bringing back with it in its resurgence something that up until now has lacked; Sport. The GS really does strike one of the best balances between luxury and sport in the market today. The competition is strong though throughout the industry, especially when you move higher up the performance apex where few Lexus vehicles play. Overall though, quality has stepped up with certain models leading the way and a select few bogging down.
This brings me to Lexus's current product offering. A good mix of sedans and utes fills out the Lexus line, but it's missing some important pieces. Coupes and Convertibles. This RC cannot come soon enough, same with an SC replacement be it called SC or LC. European makes are plugging every niche they can find while Lexus struggles to fill core model requirements that make an automaker Tier 1 status.
Lexus has been an innovative automaker such as being the first to pioneer the 8 speed automatic, yet they've been one of the last Tier 1's to implement it. This is especially true of powertrains which although still relevant, are quickly giving up ground to established European makes and an American revival. To Lexus's credit, It doesn't help that Lexus's fellow domestic automakers Acura and Infiniti are even further behind. The lack of product, tech, innovation and drive from the afore mentioned two drives little competition between the big three Japanese automakers which in turn falls short of the big German three, a charging force in Porsche, and the Jaguar LandRover resurgence. Lexus design has become more bold with the spindle, and quality and drive are among the best in class. These heavy refreshes are not enough though to keep them in the at the tops of their respective segments. The 4GS and initial reviews of the 3IS being both full redesigned are striking the best balance of sport and luxury. The ES and LS not as much. Much of the shortcoming being aging power trains. Take a look at the LS's competition (bold = segment leading).
Audi A8 4.0T 420hp 444lbft
MBZ S550 4.6T 429hp 515lbft
BMW 750i 4.4T 445hp 480lbft
Lexus LS460 4.6 NA 386hp 367lbft
BTW where is the LS350? A8, S, and 7 all offer 6 cylinder options.
For the ES, like the thread about whether to get rid of it, I'm all for dropping it. The ES has lost any appeal as a luxury car because they took away much of it's "comfort" and made it "sporty", and in doing so slapped together some plastic panels and called it a day. If they really wanted to impress me, they'd cancel the ES (as the Avalon is nicer than it for pity's sake and the materials used are so unbefitting a Lexus its slap in consumer's faces), the natural replacement would be to position the GS better. Offer a smaller turbo 4 in the GS to lower base price and compete toe to toe with the Germans. IS, 3, C, A4. GS, 5, E, A6. LS, 7, S, A8. That's all you need. You don't need the odd duck ES. GS too firm a ride? Add a heavy comfort setting to the adaptive variable suspension on the drive mode select so it has a softer ride option. If they were really adamant about keeping the ES, then I'd suggest merging the ES/HS (the new spindle on the HS looks worlds better than the ES), and make the ES/HS a solely hybrid/EV vehicle, it's own niche.
In terms of the Lexus utes, the RX is still a strong performer, but could use more luxury and presence like the ML has. The GX and LX are an odd bunch "hanging onto Traditional Lexus values". Big and competent, but simply outdated in a crowd switched from BOF to Unibody. For me, I'd like to see the GX become a 7-Passenger RX while the LX become an even better Range Rover. Coming back down the ute order, the NX cannot come soon enough, offering no doubt stiff competition to the GLK, X3, Q3/5 etc..
I'll take a minute and talk about Lexus's hybrid strategy. Lexus seems to have two trains of thought. Performance or Efficiency. I'm not the biggest fan of the ES300h or the CT200h (mainly the buzzy little I4's) but I won't deny their frugality. The price isn't half bad either, and you recapture the cost in fuel savings pretty quickly compared to some other hybrid offerings. The good thing about the ESh, RXh is that their roughly a $2000 and $5000 premium over their gas counterparts. The GSh and LSh however are completely bonkers. Let me first start by saying the GS450h is a gem. I absolutely adore it in every way, and the matte bamboo makes me hawt lol! But the near $12000 price hike for roughly $70,000 is outrageous. The GSh blends good performance and better efficiency very well, but it is 1. no replacement for a V8 like Lexus has said in the past it was and 2. too expensive for it to be a sales success. Only a handful of people will ever get to experience what a joy this car is but at the same time I have to go every time someone buys one new. I'd have to get one used because $70,000 for 338hp despite it's 34mpg doesn't seem right. Now if they made it more powerful or dropped the price by $5000 then it would be an easier pill to swallow. Then we come to the LSh. An interesting car for sure, but I was not blown away by how it performed despite being a technological marvel. And it is certainly no replacement for a proper V12 in a apex flagship.
Which makes my segway into my last point/rant about F and F-Sport. Simply put, Lexus needs to get serious about this. With the LFA gone, the ISF cannot carry itself let alone a whole brand's performance accolades on it's shoulders. Typically the mid and full sizers do this, but alas where is the GS-F? The LS-F? RC-F? I won't even mention RX-F or CT-F until Lexus can provide some super competitive power trains. A member mentioned earlier the TMG LS. Where are you TMG?? F/F-Sport needs you. I get efficiency is surging through the industry, but so is performance where the Lexus marque is falling quickly behind. The CLA45 AMG which isn't even out yet has more buzz than anything with an F or F-Sport badge. Speaking of F-Sport, the GS F-Sport has taken it's segment by storm. The RX F-Sport is a nice try but lacking still. And the IS and CT F-Sports are really just appearance packages with no ventilated seats
. I took an LS F-Sport out the other day and although it has some nice equipment like brembo brakes and a Torsen LSD, reflexes and acceleration (see above) are falling short of the competition.
Coming back to the sedans for a minute, the GS for example needs more variety. It's done well with what it has, but the lack of a V8 has deserted many potential buyers including some CL members. Not normally associated with Tier 1 makes, but quickly coming back into the limelight is Cadillac who announced a 420hp TT V6 for the CTS (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...-2014-cts.html). The 5 Series offers a turbo 4, turbo 6, turbo 8 and a hotter turbo 8. The CTS will offer a turbo 4, NA V6, TT V6 (a V8 replacement and engine to be found on the ATS-V), and a range topping SC V8 V. How can Lexus sleep at night? They have nothing and done nothing to replace models lost or even react to competition.
Lexus since the 4GS bowed has shown that a perfect blend of luxury, performance and refinement is possible (for what it has). I wish the same could be said of some other models, but they can do it. Here's to hoping the 3IS follows it's older brothers footsteps and not the ES's cost cutting. I have a feeling the extensive refresh of the LS is simply bridging the gap between 2007 and the 5LS most likely due in 2015 as a 2016 model. As others have mentioned, the key players have already played their cards and the last piece the S-Class is being revealed as we speak. A new benchmark for luxury and refinement no doubt, but with powertrains to back up it bark.
As a whole I think Lexus is on the right track, but their only drawback is how slow they are putting things into market. Be it new and updated powertrains or actual products like coupes and verts. What Lexus needs is a shot of adrenaline. One thing the Europeans and German in particular do best is bring things to fruition quickly. I understand Lexus does their homework, but at the cost of losing valuable time and ground. I want them to be more aggressive in product offering as well as marketing and advertising. Take a few cheap shots at the Germans. One of my favorites to date has been Audi BMW and MBZ using little phrases like "Checkmate" and "You're move BMW"
Even Buick is taking shots (BTW aside from build quality, the Lacrosse is the better ES - another reason to trash it)
Anyway, that's all I got to say
First off the build quality has gotten better with Lexus. Pre 2006 models carried the brands reputation of build quality, materials, luxury, assembly, refinement and comfort. When L-Finesse began manifesting itself into the line-up, design shed its boxy shell and sleek and modern came to the lime-light. Quality though slipped dramatically. If you compared the build quality of a 2006 ES330 to that of a 2007 ES350, the materials and assembly and panel gaps in the 2007 are atrocious. A refresh in 2010 helped. Flash forward to 2013, and the GS350/450h has recaptured what was lost and then some. (The new ES is a mixed bag, offering traditional Lexus qualities, but the center console plastics are un-beffiting a "Lexus", door locks cheap, and doors don't close with the nice "Clunk" noise of past ES's). Bringing back with it in its resurgence something that up until now has lacked; Sport. The GS really does strike one of the best balances between luxury and sport in the market today. The competition is strong though throughout the industry, especially when you move higher up the performance apex where few Lexus vehicles play. Overall though, quality has stepped up with certain models leading the way and a select few bogging down.
This brings me to Lexus's current product offering. A good mix of sedans and utes fills out the Lexus line, but it's missing some important pieces. Coupes and Convertibles. This RC cannot come soon enough, same with an SC replacement be it called SC or LC. European makes are plugging every niche they can find while Lexus struggles to fill core model requirements that make an automaker Tier 1 status.
Lexus has been an innovative automaker such as being the first to pioneer the 8 speed automatic, yet they've been one of the last Tier 1's to implement it. This is especially true of powertrains which although still relevant, are quickly giving up ground to established European makes and an American revival. To Lexus's credit, It doesn't help that Lexus's fellow domestic automakers Acura and Infiniti are even further behind. The lack of product, tech, innovation and drive from the afore mentioned two drives little competition between the big three Japanese automakers which in turn falls short of the big German three, a charging force in Porsche, and the Jaguar LandRover resurgence. Lexus design has become more bold with the spindle, and quality and drive are among the best in class. These heavy refreshes are not enough though to keep them in the at the tops of their respective segments. The 4GS and initial reviews of the 3IS being both full redesigned are striking the best balance of sport and luxury. The ES and LS not as much. Much of the shortcoming being aging power trains. Take a look at the LS's competition (bold = segment leading).
Audi A8 4.0T 420hp 444lbft
MBZ S550 4.6T 429hp 515lbft
BMW 750i 4.4T 445hp 480lbft
Lexus LS460 4.6 NA 386hp 367lbft
BTW where is the LS350? A8, S, and 7 all offer 6 cylinder options.
For the ES, like the thread about whether to get rid of it, I'm all for dropping it. The ES has lost any appeal as a luxury car because they took away much of it's "comfort" and made it "sporty", and in doing so slapped together some plastic panels and called it a day. If they really wanted to impress me, they'd cancel the ES (as the Avalon is nicer than it for pity's sake and the materials used are so unbefitting a Lexus its slap in consumer's faces), the natural replacement would be to position the GS better. Offer a smaller turbo 4 in the GS to lower base price and compete toe to toe with the Germans. IS, 3, C, A4. GS, 5, E, A6. LS, 7, S, A8. That's all you need. You don't need the odd duck ES. GS too firm a ride? Add a heavy comfort setting to the adaptive variable suspension on the drive mode select so it has a softer ride option. If they were really adamant about keeping the ES, then I'd suggest merging the ES/HS (the new spindle on the HS looks worlds better than the ES), and make the ES/HS a solely hybrid/EV vehicle, it's own niche.
In terms of the Lexus utes, the RX is still a strong performer, but could use more luxury and presence like the ML has. The GX and LX are an odd bunch "hanging onto Traditional Lexus values". Big and competent, but simply outdated in a crowd switched from BOF to Unibody. For me, I'd like to see the GX become a 7-Passenger RX while the LX become an even better Range Rover. Coming back down the ute order, the NX cannot come soon enough, offering no doubt stiff competition to the GLK, X3, Q3/5 etc..
I'll take a minute and talk about Lexus's hybrid strategy. Lexus seems to have two trains of thought. Performance or Efficiency. I'm not the biggest fan of the ES300h or the CT200h (mainly the buzzy little I4's) but I won't deny their frugality. The price isn't half bad either, and you recapture the cost in fuel savings pretty quickly compared to some other hybrid offerings. The good thing about the ESh, RXh is that their roughly a $2000 and $5000 premium over their gas counterparts. The GSh and LSh however are completely bonkers. Let me first start by saying the GS450h is a gem. I absolutely adore it in every way, and the matte bamboo makes me hawt lol! But the near $12000 price hike for roughly $70,000 is outrageous. The GSh blends good performance and better efficiency very well, but it is 1. no replacement for a V8 like Lexus has said in the past it was and 2. too expensive for it to be a sales success. Only a handful of people will ever get to experience what a joy this car is but at the same time I have to go
every time someone buys one new. I'd have to get one used because $70,000 for 338hp despite it's 34mpg doesn't seem right. Now if they made it more powerful or dropped the price by $5000 then it would be an easier pill to swallow. Then we come to the LSh. An interesting car for sure, but I was not blown away by how it performed despite being a technological marvel. And it is certainly no replacement for a proper V12 in a apex flagship. Which makes my segway into my last point/rant about F and F-Sport. Simply put, Lexus needs to get serious about this. With the LFA gone, the ISF cannot carry itself let alone a whole brand's performance accolades on it's shoulders. Typically the mid and full sizers do this, but alas where is the GS-F? The LS-F? RC-F? I won't even mention RX-F or CT-F until Lexus can provide some super competitive power trains. A member mentioned earlier the TMG LS. Where are you TMG?? F/F-Sport needs you. I get efficiency is surging through the industry, but so is performance where the Lexus marque is falling quickly behind. The CLA45 AMG which isn't even out yet has more buzz than anything with an F or F-Sport badge. Speaking of F-Sport, the GS F-Sport has taken it's segment by storm. The RX F-Sport is a nice try but lacking still. And the IS and CT F-Sports are really just appearance packages with no ventilated seats
. I took an LS F-Sport out the other day and although it has some nice equipment like brembo brakes and a Torsen LSD, reflexes and acceleration (see above) are falling short of the competition. Coming back to the sedans for a minute, the GS for example needs more variety. It's done well with what it has, but the lack of a V8 has deserted many potential buyers including some CL members. Not normally associated with Tier 1 makes, but quickly coming back into the limelight is Cadillac who announced a 420hp TT V6 for the CTS (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...-2014-cts.html). The 5 Series offers a turbo 4, turbo 6, turbo 8 and a hotter turbo 8. The CTS will offer a turbo 4, NA V6, TT V6 (a V8 replacement and engine to be found on the ATS-V), and a range topping SC V8 V. How can Lexus sleep at night? They have nothing and done nothing to replace models lost or even react to competition.
Lexus since the 4GS bowed has shown that a perfect blend of luxury, performance and refinement is possible (for what it has). I wish the same could be said of some other models, but they can do it. Here's to hoping the 3IS follows it's older brothers footsteps and not the ES's cost cutting. I have a feeling the extensive refresh of the LS is simply bridging the gap between 2007 and the 5LS most likely due in 2015 as a 2016 model. As others have mentioned, the key players have already played their cards and the last piece the S-Class is being revealed as we speak. A new benchmark for luxury and refinement no doubt, but with powertrains to back up it bark.
As a whole I think Lexus is on the right track, but their only drawback is how slow they are putting things into market. Be it new and updated powertrains or actual products like coupes and verts. What Lexus needs is a shot of adrenaline. One thing the Europeans and German in particular do best is bring things to fruition quickly. I understand Lexus does their homework, but at the cost of losing valuable time and ground. I want them to be more aggressive in product offering as well as marketing and advertising. Take a few cheap shots at the Germans. One of my favorites to date has been Audi BMW and MBZ using little phrases like "Checkmate" and "You're move BMW"
Even Buick is taking shots (BTW aside from build quality, the Lacrosse is the better ES - another reason to trash it)
Anyway, that's all I got to say
03-18-13, 06:10 PM
#39
well, gotta compare Lexus to competition... for instance, base 3 series has worse interior than ES... heck it has worse interior than some European Toyota's. Should BMW cancel 3 series? It is complete disaster ruining BMW? Or will it become best selling 3 series ever?
As they say, proof is in the pudding... Lexus sells cars world wide and sales are up 18% last year, biggest rise of all luxury brands. 2013 should be better with new IS as old IS sales have stalled completely.
Believe it or not, in 2012 all these set their annual sales records: The CT (64,023), LX (28,747) & GS 450h (8,466).
I am looking forward to next IS as well as baby SUV... maybe 2014 will have Lexus break into 600k/yr sales?
As they say, proof is in the pudding... Lexus sells cars world wide and sales are up 18% last year, biggest rise of all luxury brands. 2013 should be better with new IS as old IS sales have stalled completely.
Believe it or not, in 2012 all these set their annual sales records: The CT (64,023), LX (28,747) & GS 450h (8,466).
I am looking forward to next IS as well as baby SUV... maybe 2014 will have Lexus break into 600k/yr sales?
03-18-13, 06:42 PM
#41
I completely understand the op's point. Anone who has driven 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's luxury sedans knows how floaty and cushy those cars were. The OG ls400 was a lot like the luxo-barges of old. Caddy and Lincoln were the best at producing that cushy ride.
Now every brand wants to test their car on the Autobahn or Nurburgren (sp) to give the car better performance.
I happen to like the way Lexus cars drive. Luxury but with some sport dialed in. Even the LS can be switched to a sport mode for more aggressively tuned driving.
As a Lexus salesman, I feel it.
I tried to sell my aunt an LS460. Her first comment was the car felt bumpy. This is a person who loves Caddy. I knew she wouldn't like the LS but I tried.
My viewpoint. The LS and ES should remain luxo-ride oriented with F-Sport options for the LS.
Lexus should also produce sport coupes and sedans for the enthusiast. If they don't do a sport coupe with the legroom I need, I am done buying Lexus cars. Well, new ones that is.
Now every brand wants to test their car on the Autobahn or Nurburgren (sp) to give the car better performance.
I happen to like the way Lexus cars drive. Luxury but with some sport dialed in. Even the LS can be switched to a sport mode for more aggressively tuned driving.
As a Lexus salesman, I feel it.
I tried to sell my aunt an LS460. Her first comment was the car felt bumpy. This is a person who loves Caddy. I knew she wouldn't like the LS but I tried.
My viewpoint. The LS and ES should remain luxo-ride oriented with F-Sport options for the LS.
Lexus should also produce sport coupes and sedans for the enthusiast. If they don't do a sport coupe with the legroom I need, I am done buying Lexus cars. Well, new ones that is.
03-19-13, 08:46 AM
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
I like the new direction. I do feel though that Lexus's reaction time to bringing product and technology to the market is on the slower side. That said their marketing could be better too; needs more aggression.
First off the build quality has gotten better with Lexus. Pre 2006 models carried the brands reputation of build quality, materials, luxury, assembly, refinement and comfort. When L-Finesse began manifesting itself into the line-up, design shed its boxy shell and sleek and modern came to the lime-light. Quality though slipped dramatically. If you compared the build quality of a 2006 ES330 to that of a 2007 ES350, the materials and assembly and panel gaps in the 2007 are atrocious. A refresh in 2010 helped. Flash forward to 2013, and the GS350/450h has recaptured what was lost and then some. (The new ES is a mixed bag, offering traditional Lexus qualities, but the center console plastics are un-beffiting a "Lexus", door locks cheap, and doors don't close with the nice "Clunk" noise of past ES's). Bringing back with it in its resurgence something that up until now has lacked; Sport. The GS really does strike one of the best balances between luxury and sport in the market today. The competition is strong though throughout the industry, especially when you move higher up the performance apex where few Lexus vehicles play. Overall though, quality has stepped up with certain models leading the way and a select few bogging down.
This brings me to Lexus's current product offering. A good mix of sedans and utes fills out the Lexus line, but it's missing some important pieces. Coupes and Convertibles. This RC cannot come soon enough, same with an SC replacement be it called SC or LC. European makes are plugging every niche they can find while Lexus struggles to fill core model requirements that make an automaker Tier 1 status.
Lexus has been an innovative automaker such as being the first to pioneer the 8 speed automatic, yet they've been one of the last Tier 1's to implement it. This is especially true of powertrains which although still relevant, are quickly giving up ground to established European makes and an American revival. To Lexus's credit, It doesn't help that Lexus's fellow domestic automakers Acura and Infiniti are even further behind. The lack of product, tech, innovation and drive from the afore mentioned two drives little competition between the big three Japanese automakers which in turn falls short of the big German three, a charging force in Porsche, and the Jaguar LandRover resurgence. Lexus design has become more bold with the spindle, and quality and drive are among the best in class. These heavy refreshes are not enough though to keep them in the at the tops of their respective segments. The 4GS and initial reviews of the 3IS being both full redesigned are striking the best balance of sport and luxury. The ES and LS not as much. Much of the shortcoming being aging power trains. Take a look at the LS's competition (bold = segment leading).
Audi A8 4.0T 420hp 444lbft
MBZ S550 4.6T 429hp 515lbft
BMW 750i 4.4T 445hp 480lbft
Lexus LS460 4.6 NA 386hp 367lbft
BTW where is the LS350? A8, S, and 7 all offer 6 cylinder options.
For the ES, like the thread about whether to get rid of it, I'm all for dropping it. The ES has lost any appeal as a luxury car because they took away much of it's "comfort" and made it "sporty", and in doing so slapped together some plastic panels and called it a day. If they really wanted to impress me, they'd cancel the ES (as the Avalon is nicer than it for pity's sake and the materials used are so unbefitting a Lexus its slap in consumer's faces), the natural replacement would be to position the GS better. Offer a smaller turbo 4 in the GS to lower base price and compete toe to toe with the Germans. IS, 3, C, A4. GS, 5, E, A6. LS, 7, S, A8. That's all you need. You don't need the odd duck ES. GS too firm a ride? Add a heavy comfort setting to the adaptive variable suspension on the drive mode select so it has a softer ride option. If they were really adamant about keeping the ES, then I'd suggest merging the ES/HS (the new spindle on the HS looks worlds better than the ES), and make the ES/HS a solely hybrid/EV vehicle, it's own niche.
In terms of the Lexus utes, the RX is still a strong performer, but could use more luxury and presence like the ML has. The GX and LX are an odd bunch "hanging onto Traditional Lexus values". Big and competent, but simply outdated in a crowd switched from BOF to Unibody. For me, I'd like to see the GX become a 7-Passenger RX while the LX become an even better Range Rover. Coming back down the ute order, the NX cannot come soon enough, offering no doubt stiff competition to the GLK, X3, Q3/5 etc..
I'll take a minute and talk about Lexus's hybrid strategy. Lexus seems to have two trains of thought. Performance or Efficiency. I'm not the biggest fan of the ES300h or the CT200h (mainly the buzzy little I4's) but I won't deny their frugality. The price isn't half bad either, and you recapture the cost in fuel savings pretty quickly compared to some other hybrid offerings. The good thing about the ESh, RXh is that their roughly a $2000 and $5000 premium over their gas counterparts. The GSh and LSh however are completely bonkers. Let me first start by saying the GS450h is a gem. I absolutely adore it in every way, and the matte bamboo makes me hawt lol! But the near $12000 price hike for roughly $70,000 is outrageous. The GSh blends good performance and better efficiency very well, but it is 1. no replacement for a V8 like Lexus has said in the past it was and 2. too expensive for it to be a sales success. Only a handful of people will ever get to experience what a joy this car is but at the same time I have to go every time someone buys one new. I'd have to get one used because $70,000 for 338hp despite it's 34mpg doesn't seem right. Now if they made it more powerful or dropped the price by $5000 then it would be an easier pill to swallow. Then we come to the LSh. An interesting car for sure, but I was not blown away by how it performed despite being a technological marvel. And it is certainly no replacement for a proper V12 in a apex flagship.
Which makes my segway into my last point/rant about F and F-Sport. Simply put, Lexus needs to get serious about this. With the LFA gone, the ISF cannot carry itself let alone a whole brand's performance accolades on it's shoulders. Typically the mid and full sizers do this, but alas where is the GS-F? The LS-F? RC-F? I won't even mention RX-F or CT-F until Lexus can provide some super competitive power trains. A member mentioned earlier the TMG LS. Where are you TMG?? F/F-Sport needs you. I get efficiency is surging through the industry, but so is performance where the Lexus marque is falling quickly behind. The CLA45 AMG which isn't even out yet has more buzz than anything with an F or F-Sport badge. Speaking of F-Sport, the GS F-Sport has taken it's segment by storm. The RX F-Sport is a nice try but lacking still. And the IS and CT F-Sports are really just appearance packages with no ventilated seats. I took an LS F-Sport out the other day and although it has some nice equipment like brembo brakes and a Torsen LSD, reflexes and acceleration (see above) are falling short of the competition.
Coming back to the sedans for a minute, the GS for example needs more variety. It's done well with what it has, but the lack of a V8 has deserted many potential buyers including some CL members. Not normally associated with Tier 1 makes, but quickly coming back into the limelight is Cadillac who announced a 420hp TT V6 for the CTS (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...-2014-cts.html). The 5 Series offers a turbo 4, turbo 6, turbo 8 and a hotter turbo 8. The CTS will offer a turbo 4, NA V6, TT V6 (a V8 replacement and engine to be found on the ATS-V), and a range topping SC V8 V. How can Lexus sleep at night? They have nothing and done nothing to replace models lost or even react to competition.
Lexus since the 4GS bowed has shown that a perfect blend of luxury, performance and refinement is possible (for what it has). I wish the same could be said of some other models, but they can do it. Here's to hoping the 3IS follows it's older brothers footsteps and not the ES's cost cutting. I have a feeling the extensive refresh of the LS is simply bridging the gap between 2007 and the 5LS most likely due in 2015 as a 2016 model. As others have mentioned, the key players have already played their cards and the last piece the S-Class is being revealed as we speak. A new benchmark for luxury and refinement no doubt, but with powertrains to back up it bark.
As a whole I think Lexus is on the right track, but their only drawback is how slow they are putting things into market. Be it new and updated powertrains or actual products like coupes and verts. What Lexus needs is a shot of adrenaline. One thing the Europeans and German in particular do best is bring things to fruition quickly. I understand Lexus does their homework, but at the cost of losing valuable time and ground. I want them to be more aggressive in product offering as well as marketing and advertising. Take a few cheap shots at the Germans. One of my favorites to date has been Audi BMW and MBZ using little phrases like "Checkmate" and "You're move BMW"
Even Buick is taking shots (BTW aside from build quality, the Lacrosse is the better ES - another reason to trash it)
Anyway, that's all I got to say
First off the build quality has gotten better with Lexus. Pre 2006 models carried the brands reputation of build quality, materials, luxury, assembly, refinement and comfort. When L-Finesse began manifesting itself into the line-up, design shed its boxy shell and sleek and modern came to the lime-light. Quality though slipped dramatically. If you compared the build quality of a 2006 ES330 to that of a 2007 ES350, the materials and assembly and panel gaps in the 2007 are atrocious. A refresh in 2010 helped. Flash forward to 2013, and the GS350/450h has recaptured what was lost and then some. (The new ES is a mixed bag, offering traditional Lexus qualities, but the center console plastics are un-beffiting a "Lexus", door locks cheap, and doors don't close with the nice "Clunk" noise of past ES's). Bringing back with it in its resurgence something that up until now has lacked; Sport. The GS really does strike one of the best balances between luxury and sport in the market today. The competition is strong though throughout the industry, especially when you move higher up the performance apex where few Lexus vehicles play. Overall though, quality has stepped up with certain models leading the way and a select few bogging down.
This brings me to Lexus's current product offering. A good mix of sedans and utes fills out the Lexus line, but it's missing some important pieces. Coupes and Convertibles. This RC cannot come soon enough, same with an SC replacement be it called SC or LC. European makes are plugging every niche they can find while Lexus struggles to fill core model requirements that make an automaker Tier 1 status.
Lexus has been an innovative automaker such as being the first to pioneer the 8 speed automatic, yet they've been one of the last Tier 1's to implement it. This is especially true of powertrains which although still relevant, are quickly giving up ground to established European makes and an American revival. To Lexus's credit, It doesn't help that Lexus's fellow domestic automakers Acura and Infiniti are even further behind. The lack of product, tech, innovation and drive from the afore mentioned two drives little competition between the big three Japanese automakers which in turn falls short of the big German three, a charging force in Porsche, and the Jaguar LandRover resurgence. Lexus design has become more bold with the spindle, and quality and drive are among the best in class. These heavy refreshes are not enough though to keep them in the at the tops of their respective segments. The 4GS and initial reviews of the 3IS being both full redesigned are striking the best balance of sport and luxury. The ES and LS not as much. Much of the shortcoming being aging power trains. Take a look at the LS's competition (bold = segment leading).
Audi A8 4.0T 420hp 444lbft
MBZ S550 4.6T 429hp 515lbft
BMW 750i 4.4T 445hp 480lbft
Lexus LS460 4.6 NA 386hp 367lbft
BTW where is the LS350? A8, S, and 7 all offer 6 cylinder options.
For the ES, like the thread about whether to get rid of it, I'm all for dropping it. The ES has lost any appeal as a luxury car because they took away much of it's "comfort" and made it "sporty", and in doing so slapped together some plastic panels and called it a day. If they really wanted to impress me, they'd cancel the ES (as the Avalon is nicer than it for pity's sake and the materials used are so unbefitting a Lexus its slap in consumer's faces), the natural replacement would be to position the GS better. Offer a smaller turbo 4 in the GS to lower base price and compete toe to toe with the Germans. IS, 3, C, A4. GS, 5, E, A6. LS, 7, S, A8. That's all you need. You don't need the odd duck ES. GS too firm a ride? Add a heavy comfort setting to the adaptive variable suspension on the drive mode select so it has a softer ride option. If they were really adamant about keeping the ES, then I'd suggest merging the ES/HS (the new spindle on the HS looks worlds better than the ES), and make the ES/HS a solely hybrid/EV vehicle, it's own niche.
In terms of the Lexus utes, the RX is still a strong performer, but could use more luxury and presence like the ML has. The GX and LX are an odd bunch "hanging onto Traditional Lexus values". Big and competent, but simply outdated in a crowd switched from BOF to Unibody. For me, I'd like to see the GX become a 7-Passenger RX while the LX become an even better Range Rover. Coming back down the ute order, the NX cannot come soon enough, offering no doubt stiff competition to the GLK, X3, Q3/5 etc..
I'll take a minute and talk about Lexus's hybrid strategy. Lexus seems to have two trains of thought. Performance or Efficiency. I'm not the biggest fan of the ES300h or the CT200h (mainly the buzzy little I4's) but I won't deny their frugality. The price isn't half bad either, and you recapture the cost in fuel savings pretty quickly compared to some other hybrid offerings. The good thing about the ESh, RXh is that their roughly a $2000 and $5000 premium over their gas counterparts. The GSh and LSh however are completely bonkers. Let me first start by saying the GS450h is a gem. I absolutely adore it in every way, and the matte bamboo makes me hawt lol! But the near $12000 price hike for roughly $70,000 is outrageous. The GSh blends good performance and better efficiency very well, but it is 1. no replacement for a V8 like Lexus has said in the past it was and 2. too expensive for it to be a sales success. Only a handful of people will ever get to experience what a joy this car is but at the same time I have to go
every time someone buys one new. I'd have to get one used because $70,000 for 338hp despite it's 34mpg doesn't seem right. Now if they made it more powerful or dropped the price by $5000 then it would be an easier pill to swallow. Then we come to the LSh. An interesting car for sure, but I was not blown away by how it performed despite being a technological marvel. And it is certainly no replacement for a proper V12 in a apex flagship. Which makes my segway into my last point/rant about F and F-Sport. Simply put, Lexus needs to get serious about this. With the LFA gone, the ISF cannot carry itself let alone a whole brand's performance accolades on it's shoulders. Typically the mid and full sizers do this, but alas where is the GS-F? The LS-F? RC-F? I won't even mention RX-F or CT-F until Lexus can provide some super competitive power trains. A member mentioned earlier the TMG LS. Where are you TMG?? F/F-Sport needs you. I get efficiency is surging through the industry, but so is performance where the Lexus marque is falling quickly behind. The CLA45 AMG which isn't even out yet has more buzz than anything with an F or F-Sport badge. Speaking of F-Sport, the GS F-Sport has taken it's segment by storm. The RX F-Sport is a nice try but lacking still. And the IS and CT F-Sports are really just appearance packages with no ventilated seats
. I took an LS F-Sport out the other day and although it has some nice equipment like brembo brakes and a Torsen LSD, reflexes and acceleration (see above) are falling short of the competition. Coming back to the sedans for a minute, the GS for example needs more variety. It's done well with what it has, but the lack of a V8 has deserted many potential buyers including some CL members. Not normally associated with Tier 1 makes, but quickly coming back into the limelight is Cadillac who announced a 420hp TT V6 for the CTS (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...-2014-cts.html). The 5 Series offers a turbo 4, turbo 6, turbo 8 and a hotter turbo 8. The CTS will offer a turbo 4, NA V6, TT V6 (a V8 replacement and engine to be found on the ATS-V), and a range topping SC V8 V. How can Lexus sleep at night? They have nothing and done nothing to replace models lost or even react to competition.
Lexus since the 4GS bowed has shown that a perfect blend of luxury, performance and refinement is possible (for what it has). I wish the same could be said of some other models, but they can do it. Here's to hoping the 3IS follows it's older brothers footsteps and not the ES's cost cutting. I have a feeling the extensive refresh of the LS is simply bridging the gap between 2007 and the 5LS most likely due in 2015 as a 2016 model. As others have mentioned, the key players have already played their cards and the last piece the S-Class is being revealed as we speak. A new benchmark for luxury and refinement no doubt, but with powertrains to back up it bark.
As a whole I think Lexus is on the right track, but their only drawback is how slow they are putting things into market. Be it new and updated powertrains or actual products like coupes and verts. What Lexus needs is a shot of adrenaline. One thing the Europeans and German in particular do best is bring things to fruition quickly. I understand Lexus does their homework, but at the cost of losing valuable time and ground. I want them to be more aggressive in product offering as well as marketing and advertising. Take a few cheap shots at the Germans. One of my favorites to date has been Audi BMW and MBZ using little phrases like "Checkmate" and "You're move BMW"
Even Buick is taking shots (BTW aside from build quality, the Lacrosse is the better ES - another reason to trash it)
Anyway, that's all I got to say
03-19-13, 09:02 AM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
No offense, Mike, but that 's the problem....the suspension and tires are too solid. It has lost the classic ES ride.
I agree, though, that, aside from that (and some minor interior cost-cutting), the new ES is still a good entry-level luxury car, and I would probably buy it before some rivals....especially the harsh-riding Infiniti sedans, which are even worse over bumps. If it were a choice between the ES and the Buick Lacrosse, I would be hard-pressed between the two, even though the Lacrosse has a better ride/handling combo (one of the best of any American nameplate). The ES, though, would probably be more reliable in the long run.
I agree, though, that, aside from that (and some minor interior cost-cutting), the new ES is still a good entry-level luxury car, and I would probably buy it before some rivals....especially the harsh-riding Infiniti sedans, which are even worse over bumps. If it were a choice between the ES and the Buick Lacrosse, I would be hard-pressed between the two, even though the Lacrosse has a better ride/handling combo (one of the best of any American nameplate). The ES, though, would probably be more reliable in the long run.
03-19-13, 09:17 AM
#44
No offense, Mike, but that 's the problem....the suspension and tires are too solid. It has lost the classic ES ride.
I agree, though, that, aside from that (and some minor interior cost-cutting), the new ES is still a good entry-level luxury car, and I would probably buy it before some rivals....especially the harsh-riding Infiniti sedans, which are even worse over bumps. If it were a choice between the ES and the Buick Lacrosse, I would be hard-pressed between the two, even though the Lacrosse has a better ride/handling combo (one of the best of any American nameplate). The ES, though, would probably be more reliable in the long run.
I agree, though, that, aside from that (and some minor interior cost-cutting), the new ES is still a good entry-level luxury car, and I would probably buy it before some rivals....especially the harsh-riding Infiniti sedans, which are even worse over bumps. If it were a choice between the ES and the Buick Lacrosse, I would be hard-pressed between the two, even though the Lacrosse has a better ride/handling combo (one of the best of any American nameplate). The ES, though, would probably be more reliable in the long run.
Last 2 years almost nobody bought Avalon built for old people... new one is selling like crazy.
03-19-13, 09:25 AM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
In fact, IMO, they probably outdo the new Lexus ES350 at its own game.