Unintended Sudden Acceleration of an Hyundai Elantra Ended in High-Speed Crash
02-11-15, 06:16 AM
#61
And the mention of no credible reports on the acceleration deal?
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota...ry?id=22972214
Hiway patrol man and family in a lexus. Out of all people other than a professional race driver he would not panic and would first do what EVERYONE says to do in that sort of situation.
What is interesting about this, long before all that acceleration stuff was in the news, my little car I installed a cruise control in would constantly have the accelerator stick. No big deal, and before that in my younger days had another old junker that had a accelerator spring that would pop off and go wide open throttle a quick toe under the gas pedal fixed the problem. So I really don't buy the floor mat answer to the problem.
Has the problem ever happened to a mechanic or old timer?
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota...ry?id=22972214
Hiway patrol man and family in a lexus. Out of all people other than a professional race driver he would not panic and would first do what EVERYONE says to do in that sort of situation.
What is interesting about this, long before all that acceleration stuff was in the news, my little car I installed a cruise control in would constantly have the accelerator stick. No big deal, and before that in my younger days had another old junker that had a accelerator spring that would pop off and go wide open throttle a quick toe under the gas pedal fixed the problem. So I really don't buy the floor mat answer to the problem.
Has the problem ever happened to a mechanic or old timer?
02-11-15, 06:22 AM
#62
Not everyone does this, they panic or whatever and pump the brakes. That's why a throttle override makes so much sense, protect people from their own incompetence. Either way I don't understand why in so many of these cases no one tries to put the car in neutral. Sure they say they tried and it didn't work but I don't find this credible.
as to the brakes overpowering engine, unless you destroyed your brakes, they will... one of the big mags (C/D?) had a test with Camry V6 and it had no problems stopping the car after pedal was jammed at WOT on purpose.
Now if you are applying your brakes for 40-50 miles without stopping completely, you will kill them and of course they wont stop anything anymore.
So basically these smart stop systems help drivers that should not be driving. New Toyota auto-brake safety system will also do this in parking lots - if it detects obstacle and you press gas (as in pedal misapplication), car will not do anything even at low speeds.
02-11-15, 08:14 AM
#63
All kinda funny responses since my post. None of you even watched the 60 minutes deal. IT SHOWED HOW THE CAR WAS CONTROLED BY SOMEONE ELSE.
And how the code was reprogrammed. In new cars after a certain year the "mechanical shifter" is no more mechanical than the accelerator pedal is, and if there is a mechanical link its only to the park pawl and that will not engage at speed. At speed the small surface area parking brakes become ineffective because of fade. And besides try to drive your car over 50 mph and yank the parking brake, I bet you spin out of control especially if you are entering a turn.
Again your all thinking of cars from the early 90's and lower years. It is the computer age in cars now.
Here are some good links for electronic parking brakes.
https://www.google.com/patents/US5370449
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parking_brake
scroll down to electric park brake.
http://www.audiworld.com/forums/q5-s...brake-2871442/
In this forum read the "electromechanical parking brake"
Oh and ABS is operated via a computer, everyone thinks runway is just a gas pedal sticking. Again watch 60 minutes show.
Here you go the only mechanical link in this manualish type transmission is to the parking pawl. The shift collars are all moved by way of shift solenoids. They mention a manual mode, but even then its done just like anyother modern automatic transmission, by electrical shift solenoids. And a computer is allowing the different modes.
ZF 7DT dual clutch transmission - YouTube
And how the code was reprogrammed. In new cars after a certain year the "mechanical shifter" is no more mechanical than the accelerator pedal is, and if there is a mechanical link its only to the park pawl and that will not engage at speed. At speed the small surface area parking brakes become ineffective because of fade. And besides try to drive your car over 50 mph and yank the parking brake, I bet you spin out of control especially if you are entering a turn.
Again your all thinking of cars from the early 90's and lower years. It is the computer age in cars now.
Here are some good links for electronic parking brakes.
https://www.google.com/patents/US5370449
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parking_brake
scroll down to electric park brake.
http://www.audiworld.com/forums/q5-s...brake-2871442/
In this forum read the "electromechanical parking brake"
Oh and ABS is operated via a computer, everyone thinks runway is just a gas pedal sticking. Again watch 60 minutes show.
Here you go the only mechanical link in this manualish type transmission is to the parking pawl. The shift collars are all moved by way of shift solenoids. They mention a manual mode, but even then its done just like anyother modern automatic transmission, by electrical shift solenoids. And a computer is allowing the different modes.
ZF 7DT dual clutch transmission - YouTube
02-11-15, 11:28 AM
#65
Lexus Champion
For there to be an actual unintended acceleration with no recourse all of this has to happen -
Software/mechanical problem creating WOT
Transmission unable to be put in neutral
Ignition cannot be turned off
The probability of the all 3 of these things happening at once are next to impossible.
02-11-15, 01:12 PM
#66
I guess no one has ever heard about Trac controls causing spin outs, or ABS causing crashes, on the newer cars with things like OnStar (I know different manufactures have something named different) they can turn things on and off, and then theres the stuff that can be done through it that is not publicized like what was shown on 60 minutes.
So again since the computers in the cars control everything, that is the main reason for the runaway cars. The mat thing is total nonsense and is the cheap and easy way out of a serious problem. The cop would have turned the key off or shifted to neutral, or stepped hard on the brake and looked down or reached down to pull up on the gas pedal.
But when the only thing that worked for him is the steering wheel that's all that could be done is enjoy the ride. The parking brake would fade unless it was an electromechanical type that would then not work, and everything else would be locked out, push on the brakes with what ever force you like, sorry ABS controlled via computer won't allow anything to happen. Shift that transmission shift switch to neutral sorry the computer says no. Turn that key off, sorry computer says no, and now if you have auto parallel park or lane hold try to steer out of it.
So again since the computers in the cars control everything, that is the main reason for the runaway cars. The mat thing is total nonsense and is the cheap and easy way out of a serious problem. The cop would have turned the key off or shifted to neutral, or stepped hard on the brake and looked down or reached down to pull up on the gas pedal.
But when the only thing that worked for him is the steering wheel that's all that could be done is enjoy the ride. The parking brake would fade unless it was an electromechanical type that would then not work, and everything else would be locked out, push on the brakes with what ever force you like, sorry ABS controlled via computer won't allow anything to happen. Shift that transmission shift switch to neutral sorry the computer says no. Turn that key off, sorry computer says no, and now if you have auto parallel park or lane hold try to steer out of it.
02-11-15, 01:48 PM
#67
Got it, so because you don't like the explanation of the floor mat, it must be the computers that are causing every single UA issue. Despite the fact that the study from the NHTSA and NASA say that there is no proof that it was a software issue, it has to be a software issue.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/UA
http://www.nhtsa.gov/UA
02-11-15, 02:15 PM
#68
Lexus Test Driver
I guess no one has ever heard about Trac controls causing spin outs, or ABS causing crashes, on the newer cars with things like OnStar (I know different manufactures have something named different) they can turn things on and off, and then theres the stuff that can be done through it that is not publicized like what was shown on 60 minutes.
So again since the computers in the cars control everything, that is the main reason for the runaway cars. The mat thing is total nonsense and is the cheap and easy way out of a serious problem. The cop would have turned the key off or shifted to neutral, or stepped hard on the brake and looked down or reached down to pull up on the gas pedal.
But when the only thing that worked for him is the steering wheel that's all that could be done is enjoy the ride. The parking brake would fade unless it was an electromechanical type that would then not work, and everything else would be locked out, push on the brakes with what ever force you like, sorry ABS controlled via computer won't allow anything to happen. Shift that transmission shift switch to neutral sorry the computer says no. Turn that key off, sorry computer says no, and now if you have auto parallel park or lane hold try to steer out of it.
So again since the computers in the cars control everything, that is the main reason for the runaway cars. The mat thing is total nonsense and is the cheap and easy way out of a serious problem. The cop would have turned the key off or shifted to neutral, or stepped hard on the brake and looked down or reached down to pull up on the gas pedal.
But when the only thing that worked for him is the steering wheel that's all that could be done is enjoy the ride. The parking brake would fade unless it was an electromechanical type that would then not work, and everything else would be locked out, push on the brakes with what ever force you like, sorry ABS controlled via computer won't allow anything to happen. Shift that transmission shift switch to neutral sorry the computer says no. Turn that key off, sorry computer says no, and now if you have auto parallel park or lane hold try to steer out of it.
Last edited by tex2670; 02-11-15 at 02:20 PM.
02-11-15, 02:26 PM
#69
Lexus Champion
The report that Allan K posted is a good and informative read. It's hard to continue to believe in UA after reading it. I also find that this Car and Driver article does a decent job of summing up the DOT response and the NASA findings:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-scare-feature
On a side note, I am an engineer and this is exactly the kind of stuff I work on daily, but in commercial aviation. We are transitioning more and more to computer/electronic controlled systems and away from mechanical systems, for reliability concerns. I've learned a lot over the past 10 years or so. It's a fascinating subject.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-scare-feature
On a side note, I am an engineer and this is exactly the kind of stuff I work on daily, but in commercial aviation. We are transitioning more and more to computer/electronic controlled systems and away from mechanical systems, for reliability concerns. I've learned a lot over the past 10 years or so. It's a fascinating subject.
02-11-15, 02:29 PM
#70
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
dicer - do you ever get on a commercial airliner? (or non-commercial plane for that matter) pretty much entirely computer driven from the ground and air. of course you can go 'old school' and fly that ancient cessna or piper and your chances of death go WAY UP! 
bwaha - good one! 
except they didn't. not at all. as ted says, 60 minutes destroyed their reputation and years later their 'investigation' was all thrown out as garbage and it's taken decades for audi to get back in the game through no fault of their own.
the internets and typically millenials have caused a giant void in critical thinking, allowing actual evidence and viral conspiracies to be treated as equally valid.
except they didn't. not at all. as ted says, 60 minutes destroyed their reputation and years later their 'investigation' was all thrown out as garbage and it's taken decades for audi to get back in the game through no fault of their own.
the internets and typically millenials have caused a giant void in critical thinking, allowing actual evidence and viral conspiracies to be treated as equally valid.
02-11-15, 03:36 PM
#71
I guess no one has ever heard about Trac controls causing spin outs, or ABS causing crashes, on the newer cars with things like OnStar (I know different manufactures have something named different) they can turn things on and off, and then theres the stuff that can be done through it that is not publicized like what was shown on 60 minutes.
So again since the computers in the cars control everything, that is the main reason for the runaway cars. The mat thing is total nonsense and is the cheap and easy way out of a serious problem. The cop would have turned the key off or shifted to neutral, or stepped hard on the brake and looked down or reached down to pull up on the gas pedal.
But when the only thing that worked for him is the steering wheel that's all that could be done is enjoy the ride. The parking brake would fade unless it was an electromechanical type that would then not work, and everything else would be locked out, push on the brakes with what ever force you like, sorry ABS controlled via computer won't allow anything to happen. Shift that transmission shift switch to neutral sorry the computer says no. Turn that key off, sorry computer says no, and now if you have auto parallel park or lane hold try to steer out of it.
So again since the computers in the cars control everything, that is the main reason for the runaway cars. The mat thing is total nonsense and is the cheap and easy way out of a serious problem. The cop would have turned the key off or shifted to neutral, or stepped hard on the brake and looked down or reached down to pull up on the gas pedal.
But when the only thing that worked for him is the steering wheel that's all that could be done is enjoy the ride. The parking brake would fade unless it was an electromechanical type that would then not work, and everything else would be locked out, push on the brakes with what ever force you like, sorry ABS controlled via computer won't allow anything to happen. Shift that transmission shift switch to neutral sorry the computer says no. Turn that key off, sorry computer says no, and now if you have auto parallel park or lane hold try to steer out of it.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...lained-feature
02-12-15, 03:09 AM
#72
Did anyone go to the link to the 60 minutes car hack?
I am a pilot that will not fly in flyby wire without having a parachute.
Anyone that deals with computers and software knows what I'm saying, a floor mat is not the problem. Like I said been there done that. Old cars go to neutral, key off simple stuff. New computerized cars the computer does it all. Nothing to debunk just a computer gone wild or someone with access to all the different onstar type control stuff.
And anything in volatile memory that is a cause of a problem will be gone after the crash, so then you have to look for some stupid thing to make you look like you found the problem. And I am not picking on Toyota, they make the best of the best, and personally I don't think there was a problem with any of the cars. Gosh in the early 90's Lexus is the only car I know of that secured the floor mats how nice I like that.
And for the guy that says no way to hack a car, watch the show. And then go try a car with onstar or some other manufactures system then come back and tell us about it.
I am a pilot that will not fly in flyby wire without having a parachute.
Anyone that deals with computers and software knows what I'm saying, a floor mat is not the problem. Like I said been there done that. Old cars go to neutral, key off simple stuff. New computerized cars the computer does it all. Nothing to debunk just a computer gone wild or someone with access to all the different onstar type control stuff.
And anything in volatile memory that is a cause of a problem will be gone after the crash, so then you have to look for some stupid thing to make you look like you found the problem. And I am not picking on Toyota, they make the best of the best, and personally I don't think there was a problem with any of the cars. Gosh in the early 90's Lexus is the only car I know of that secured the floor mats how nice I like that.
And for the guy that says no way to hack a car, watch the show. And then go try a car with onstar or some other manufactures system then come back and tell us about it.
Last edited by dicer; 02-12-15 at 03:22 AM.
02-12-15, 04:29 AM
#73
Did anyone go to the link to the 60 minutes car hack?
I am a pilot that will not fly in flyby wire without having a parachute.
Anyone that deals with computers and software knows what I'm saying, a floor mat is not the problem. Like I said been there done that. Old cars go to neutral, key off simple stuff. New computerized cars the computer does it all. Nothing to debunk just a computer gone wild or someone with access to all the different onstar type control stuff.
And anything in volatile memory that is a cause of a problem will be gone after the crash, so then you have to look for some stupid thing to make you look like you found the problem. And I am not picking on Toyota, they make the best of the best, and personally I don't think there was a problem with any of the cars. Gosh in the early 90's Lexus is the only car I know of that secured the floor mats how nice I like that.
And for the guy that says no way to hack a car, watch the show. And then go try a car with onstar or some other manufactures system then come back and tell us about it.
I am a pilot that will not fly in flyby wire without having a parachute.
Anyone that deals with computers and software knows what I'm saying, a floor mat is not the problem. Like I said been there done that. Old cars go to neutral, key off simple stuff. New computerized cars the computer does it all. Nothing to debunk just a computer gone wild or someone with access to all the different onstar type control stuff.
And anything in volatile memory that is a cause of a problem will be gone after the crash, so then you have to look for some stupid thing to make you look like you found the problem. And I am not picking on Toyota, they make the best of the best, and personally I don't think there was a problem with any of the cars. Gosh in the early 90's Lexus is the only car I know of that secured the floor mats how nice I like that.
And for the guy that says no way to hack a car, watch the show. And then go try a car with onstar or some other manufactures system then come back and tell us about it.
Hope you aren't flying in any newer Airbus planes as they're all fly by wire now.
02-12-15, 06:03 AM
#74
At the end of the day, people are going to believe what they want to believe. Do I believe that software issues are what caused any of these UA issues? No, primarily because once the press on them goes away, the problems seem to go away as well. The auto manufacturers aren't bringing all these cars in and the owners of the cars aren't all bringing them in so if it were a software issue it wouldn't have been patched and we'd be seeing a lot more of the issues.
Is hacking an issue? Right now, no. Unless more info comes out on this DARPA act and it really does not need a physical connection to the car and can be done solely by a laptop with no prior setup in the car, hacking is not really a thing. Plus, if your legitimately worried about getting your car hacked, think about the millions upon millions of cars on the road. Why would they care about you and your car? i'm damn sure they don't care about me and my car.
Is hacking an issue? Right now, no. Unless more info comes out on this DARPA act and it really does not need a physical connection to the car and can be done solely by a laptop with no prior setup in the car, hacking is not really a thing. Plus, if your legitimately worried about getting your car hacked, think about the millions upon millions of cars on the road. Why would they care about you and your car? i'm damn sure they don't care about me and my car.
02-12-15, 10:20 AM
#75
Pole Position
Did anyone go to the link to the 60 minutes car hack?
I am a pilot that will not fly in flyby wire without having a parachute.
Anyone that deals with computers and software knows what I'm saying, a floor mat is not the problem. Like I said been there done that. Old cars go to neutral, key off simple stuff. New computerized cars the computer does it all. Nothing to debunk just a computer gone wild or someone with access to all the different onstar type control stuff.
And anything in volatile memory that is a cause of a problem will be gone after the crash, so then you have to look for some stupid thing to make you look like you found the problem. And I am not picking on Toyota, they make the best of the best, and personally I don't think there was a problem with any of the cars. Gosh in the early 90's Lexus is the only car I know of that secured the floor mats how nice I like that.
And for the guy that says no way to hack a car, watch the show. And then go try a car with onstar or some other manufactures system then come back and tell us about it.
I am a pilot that will not fly in flyby wire without having a parachute.
Anyone that deals with computers and software knows what I'm saying, a floor mat is not the problem. Like I said been there done that. Old cars go to neutral, key off simple stuff. New computerized cars the computer does it all. Nothing to debunk just a computer gone wild or someone with access to all the different onstar type control stuff.
And anything in volatile memory that is a cause of a problem will be gone after the crash, so then you have to look for some stupid thing to make you look like you found the problem. And I am not picking on Toyota, they make the best of the best, and personally I don't think there was a problem with any of the cars. Gosh in the early 90's Lexus is the only car I know of that secured the floor mats how nice I like that.
And for the guy that says no way to hack a car, watch the show. And then go try a car with onstar or some other manufactures system then come back and tell us about it.