LexusChris

iTrader: (1)

I remember, when I first started getting into cars, there was the Mazda Millenia, Mitsubishi Diamante , Toyota Cressida , and Nissan Maxima. I see today, there is only the Toyota Avalon which I assume replaced the Cressida , and Nissan Maxima, as the upper midsize sedans left. Were the Mazda and Mitsubishi at the time there to compete with the Maxima and Avalon, or entry level luxury sedans at the time like the Lexus ES 300 and Acura Vigor, because I thought I remember them I could be wrong being compared at the time. Also were the Infiniti G20 and Acura Integra, like competitors at the time? And the Infiniti J30, was a competitor I assume to the 5-Series..sorry for all the questions but it's just some information i'd like to know that I was never really too sure about. Was the Acura Vigor popular during those times, I don't ever see it being discussed. Thanks all!

LeX2K

Cars I remember back then as being in competition with the ES were the Vigor, 325i, Diamante, Mercedes (can't remember which off hand), the M30, Saab, 929. You don't see many of those on the road anymore with the exception of the ES. Back then the Lexus didn't win many comparison reviews, but looking back it was far and away the best car.

Sulu

From what I remember, the FWD Mazda Millenia was one car that would have been sold under Mazda's luxury brand Amati (and replacing the RWD 929). Just as Honda had produced its new premium Acura brand, Nissan produced its Infiniti brand and Toyota its Lexus brand, Mazda wanted to produce a premium brand to be named Amati. But due to financial troubles, Amati was dead at birth, leaving its cars to be sold as Mazdas; but only the Millenia made it to North America.

What was special about the Millenia was that it was available with a V6 engine running on the high-efficiency Miller Cycle, which was essentially an Atkinson Cycle (known for its use in hybrid vehicles) but with a supercharger.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Diamante), the Mitsubishi Diamante was Mitsubishi's answer to the Honda Legend (sold as the Acura Legend and subsequently Acura RL in North America), so it too was supposed to be a premium car.

Regarding the Cressida, you are correct. That RWD car was replaced by the Camry-based FWD Avalon.

The Nissan Maxima remains the constant.

tex2670

The Maxima and Cressida predated Acura, Infiniti and Lexus brands.

Mazda first came out with the 929, which changed to the Millenia. Mitsu came out with the Diamante. These were definitely around the time that the other upscale Japanese makes came out. I remember my uncle had a Diamante in the early '90s because the Lexus dealer wouldn't budge of sticker price. I doubt that Mazda or Mitsu had the coin to create an entirely new brand, and tried to compete by just having a higher end model.

The Integra and G20 were "entry level" models to give the lux brands additional models. The Integra was based on a Civic; the G20 was based on a Sentra. The original ES250 looked almost identical to the Camry.

I'm pretty sure that the Vigor came later--Acura's original 2 models were the Legend and Integra. I don't think the Vigor was popular at all; but the Vigor became the TL.

The J30 was the pre-cursor to the G35, so I think it was aimed more at the 3-Series BMW, than the 5-Series.

Hope this helps.

mmarshall

Sulu is pretty much correct about the Millenia. It was designed to be an Amati (Mazda's upmarket division) product, but then Ford (Mazda's owner) pulled the plug on Amati for cost-cutting (and perhaps other reasons). And, from what I understand, the 1Gen Toyota Avalon was supposed to be a Lexus (in some ways, it drove like one), but then Toyota brass decided to market it under their own name as the Toyota flagship.

I was not terribly impressed with the Millenia, BTW, despite my general high opinion of the Madza sedans of the time. Not only was the interior, IMO, not very plush, but it seemed loosely-built, with interior creaks/squeaks, and, in general, drove no better then lower-priced Mazda sedans like the 626. It was also on the somewhat small size for a flagship. I found it difficult to believe that it was actually designed as a Lexus-competitor (perhaps one of the reasons why Ford pulled the plug on Amati).

The Diamante seemed well-built , with solid materials, and drove quite well for a flagship sedan, but failed in the American market from sheer lack of sales and high depreciation.

True, but it has been overshadowed by high Altima sales, just as the Avalon is somewhat overshadowed by astronomical Camry-sales.

Outrage

Acura Integra = Honda Integra
Acura Vigor = Honda Inspire
Acura Legend = Honda Legend

Infiniti G20 = Nissan Primera
Infiniti M30 = Nissan Leopard
Infiniti J30 = Nissan Leopard
Infiniti Q45 = Nissan President and later Nissan Cima

Compact/entry Level (now considered sub-compact)

• Acura Integra / Acura Vigor / Acura RSX
• Infiniti G20

Compact RWD

• Infiniti M30

Mid-sized FWD (now considered compact)

• Acura Legend
• Lexus ES 250
• Mazda Millenia
• Mitsubishi Diamante
• Nissan Maxima

Mid-sized RWD

• Infiniti J30
• Toyota Cressida

Large RWD

• Lexus LS 400
• Infiniti Q45

UDel

The Millenia and Diamante were designed and marketed more to compete with entry level lux cars from Acura, Lexus, BMW, Volvo, etc like the ES, 3 series, Vigor, J30, later Infiniti I30. They were generally marketed a little higher and were nicer and more expensive with more luxury features then the Maxima, Avalon, and some other larger sedans from more mainstream makers.

Mazda was planning on having a upmarket luxury brand like Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti called Amati in the early to mid 90's to sell the 929, Millenia, RX-7 or their version of it, Eunos models(Eunos is a more upscale Mazda brand in certain markets) and the Mazda Cosmo lux rotary coupe. The 929 was a pretty large luxurious rwd sedan they had in their lineup since the 1970's, it became more luxurious and expensive with later models and was well above the Avalon and Maxima.

The Maxima and Avalon have been positioned to compete slightly above the popular mid size family sedan markets(don't have base 4 cyl models) but generally not be at the level of a entry level lux sedan when it comes to price, features, marketing. The Avalon is a softer based roomier car, Buick and Oldsmobile models were more of its biggest competitors in the 90's as the US/American buyers are the Avalons biggest marketcustomer base. The Maxima is on the sporty side but is now a little more luxurious then it used to be.

The Acura Vigor sold in the US was positioned between the Integra and Legend, it did not sell well, it was pretty expensive, stiff riding, and not very roomy. Instead of being Accord based, it had its own longitudinal platform with a 5 cylinder which made it expensive especially since it was made in Japan. Most buyers thought the Legend was the better buy and worth paying extra for. They changed the name to TL for the next gen and offered a V6 option, sales improved but were not as high as they wanted. For the 99 model they switched to an Accord platform, ditched the 5 cylinder, production moved to the US, and most optional features became standard, the price was lower, it was a huge hit, the 3rd gen was a bigger hit.

G20 and Integra were entry level volume models for both brands, they were somewhat different as the G20 was only offered as a sedan while the Integra was more of a sporty hatchback in 2 or 4 door configs. The G20 sales never took over and it only had 2 generations, the Integra was a huge hit especially in the 90's, the GS-R was highly regarded by enthusiasts, the type R gave it serious performance/enthusiasts credibility, Integra later changed to the RSX and no longer offered as a 4 door, the RSX was dropped after 1 gen and the TSX sedan was brought over to replace it as Acura's entry level model.

The J30 was a smallish rwd sedan based largely on a Nissan Leopard, it was a replacement for the Infiniti M coupe, it only offered a NA v6 from the 300zx in the US while the Japanese market got more powerful engine options. I liked the styling but most didn't. It never took off. It was too small to compete with a 5 series, it was expensive, a little underpowered, and was more of a Lexus ES competitor then a midsize competitor. It only lasted one generation. The G35 kind of replaced it but the G was a lower priced more entry level(some say the G35 was the larger more upscale replacement for the G20) model while the J30 was positioned slightly higher and never offered a coupe version.

Hope that helps.

pvmike1

1990 Nissan Maxima!

2002GGPIS3

What a great era of cars and I firmly believe cars were built better in the 90's, because they didn't care about cost cutting..

mmarshall

Yes and no. Body sheet-metal sheet was generally thicker and stronger-feeling in the 90s, and not as many cars were cost-cutting on things like real spare tires and body-side mouldings. Controls were also much easier to use, because you didn't have to screw around with so many electronic video-screens and menu-buttons. But fit/finish was not quite what it is today, especially on some recent GM/Chrysler products, which have improved enormously. Drivetrains, in general, are also more refined and flexible today, with more gears in the transmission. The biggest single problem today, IMO, across nearly the entire car industry (even with entry-level compacts and conservative luxury-cars), is an ongoing (and worsening) obsession with steering-response and sportiness, where stiffer suspensions and lower-profile tires are ruining ride-comfort. New cars that truly ride smoothly (by my standards) are almost extinct....though, in general, Mercedes and BMW seem to achieve the best ride/handling compromise.

LexusChris

iTrader: (1)

What a great deal of information guys love it all thanks all!, it's nice to read, wasn't aware that Mazda was even planning a luxury division during that time, wonder how it would have performed if it did continue into production. MMarshall thanks for you input on the Millenia wasn't aware it wasn't that great of a car at the time. Can anybody give more details on the Miller cycle motor it had. Thanks guys keep it up.

mmarshall

That's CAR CHAT for you. Always in operation....around the clock.

Again, glad to help. The Millenia, despite the fact that I wasn't terribly impressed with it, wasn't a piece of junk by any means. It was a decent family-sedan......just, IMO, not quite in the same league, though, with some of the vehicles it was originally marketed to compete with from Lexus and Infiniti. When you are designing products to compete in ths league, there's not a whole lot of room for error.

Mazda had indeed planned a luxury division back then, but like with so many other things the company tried to do, they were simply hamstrung by their owners at Ford. Another classic example was when Ford forced Mazda to drop the highly-rated Japanese-designed B-truck series in the American market and and replace them with Ford Ranger clones, which also was extended to the Mazda Navajo SUV being a cloned 2-door Ford Explorer.

This article explains the Miller cycle-operation in detail.....probably better than I could.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_...n_cycle_engine

84Cressida

The Avalon was never meant to be a Lexus.

Kira X

iTrader: (24)

Ever since I saw that movie I've wanted a black Maxima like that. It looked so cool.

mmarshall

Technically, we're both right. It was, at first, right on the border (bridging the gap) between Toyota and Lexus, and there was at least some discussion at high levels how to badge it before Toyota was chosen.