jbjones85

iTrader: (20)

I also am quite intrigued. To me in general electric/hybrid cars are slow, boring, and ugly (imo) Tesla changes all of this for me and actually makes me interested in owning one if/when there is a more affordable model (50-60K).

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i don't think tesla would be averse to having independent dealers at some point, but with the laws the way they are, if they allowed them right now, they couldn't have company-owned dealers. given the newness of tesla, i don't blame them wanting to control sales right now, and i have no problem with their approach now or in the future.

it does not 'forbid free market and competition'. if people don't want to buy through a tesla dealer, they're free to buy something else. thank goodness, the free market does not require manufacturers of anything to sell through 'any' retailer.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

... i agree!

pbm317

I've seen some arguments that people are upset that Tesla is the first to market with this technology rather than a Toyota/BMW/etc.

But I don't see it that way. I almost see it as it took the will (and resources) of a very focused billionaire to set out on this goal. It would be hard pressed for a large company with its board of directors, shareholder interests etc to put up with the losses and what not for so long (and still somewhat).

spwolf

Sure it does... In EU, anti-trust laws forbid manufacturers to limit who can sell their cars. All they can do is set requirements and anyone can apply.

This creates free market and free move of goods throughout the EU, and gives customers options. Any kind of barrier is bad for the customer.

All of the manufacturers in the US would love to be able to open up their own dealerships and fix their vehicle prices, as well as servicing prices. Imaging paying MSRP for cars and parts?

LeX2K

I don't agree. Cars like the Prius took at least two generations before Toyota started to turn a profit, and now their hybrid tech is on its way to becoming standard in every car they make.

viperabyss

1. Partnerships. The first Tesla Roadster basically is a Lotus Elise. Tesla also bought 2.5k gliders from Lotus as the basis for the Roadster. Now they're also partnering up with companies such as Daimler, Toyota, and Panasonic. Secondly, people. The current CTO of Tesla, JB Straubel, developed many hybrid technologies before joining Tesla. Even the CFO of Tesla, Deepak Ahujah, worked in the automotive industry for most of his life.

Lastly, Musk has a lot of capitals, which can be used to hire top rated engineers. When I looked at their internship programs, they only listed top universities (think MIT, CIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc) as the choices you can select on the application. I think that's a passive way to say, "we don't accept second rate students".

2. Tesla cars theoretically should be more reliable than regular cars, since there's only a handful of moving parts. However, according to Top Gear who reviewed the Roadster, they had issues with brakes, electric motor overheating, etc. So I'd say in real life, they're not as reliable as they can be.

3. This is more of a personal opinion. IMO, I think they're going to make it. Companies that get bought out usually are short on cash. With Musk at the wheel, it is not very likely Tesla will run into financial trouble any time soon. They do have some short term challenges they have to overcome before they can be stable, and become one of the big players in the market. My friend's professor, who's familiar with merger & acquisition, said Tesla has the sign of being bought out written all over it.

4. From the top of my head, almost all of the Roadsters have been sold (2.4k units). Currently more than 13k Model S has been reserved, and hundreds of them have been delivered.

5. Ownership experience... you're better off asking someone from their Tesla forums .

6. I think for all electric car, the owners will have to worry about the range. Granted, Model S can go up to 300 miles before each recharge, which is significant. However, actual range could vary from 240 miles to 280 miles, depending on the driving condition, and how much energy is diverted away to power stuff such as dash board, A/C, etc. Tesla even dedicated a portion of the panel to inform you how many miles the car has left.

At this stage, electric cars can only fulfill the role of daily drivers.

mmarshall

I don't see that as a problem. Saturn worked that way for years, and Scion still does today....simple, no-nonsense list-price deals, plus taxes/tags. Saturn wasn't ruined by its sales/service policies (customers loved it, and it was a huge success), but by the fact that the company was grossly mismanaged by parent GM, getting rid of the plastic-body S-series compacts that were such a success, replacing them with the awful Ion, and branching out (needlessly) into other all-metal-bodied vehicles that were just rebadged Chevys, Saabs, and Opels. What happened to Saturn after 1999/2000, IMO, borders on the criminal.

That's part of Tesla's problem, though, Relatively few people today, even with the somewhat improving economic conditions in the U.S., can consider "50-60K "affordable".

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

must be why cars cost twice as much there as here.

you do know that 'independent' dealers of scion (toyota) cars basically have fixed prices, set by manufacturer, right?

and again, your point about prices is invalid, because consumers are not forced to buy a given brand of car - there is no monopoly. and again, i'm not suggesting there should be mfr dealers only. just like apple products are sold at apple stores at list prices, and also sold at retailers here at discount prices.

musk is very rich but the auto business is VERY expensive. his entire fortune could be used in a few years, although that's not going to happen because he has tons of investors involved.

yes, or day trips of up to say 100miles ea. way. that would still cover the vast majority of the driving most people do.

and thanks for your answers. !

Vladi

I was on Lincoln rd the other day and I have to say I am thinking about it. Deposit. Maybe. Base model.

viperabyss

Indeed. However, one of their short term challenges is profitability. In the last quarter, Tesla lost over 100 million dollars, mostly to R&D expenses. I know Musk recently said they turned cash flow positive, but overall he has to keep the company in the black.

Unfortunately, people don't buy cars that fit 90% of their specification. They buy cars to fit 100% of their specification. This is why you see people buying huge SUVs and trucks, when most of them drive around in town. People who buys electric cars have to have quite a bit of expendable income, as well as enough space for another car as a "the rest of 10%" car.

I think electric cars have a long way to go. However, electric motors are definitely here to stay.

And you're welcome

Blackraven

Tesla is doing so well...................and yet Fisker is having problems with their Fisker Karma.

It begs the question: How is Tesla Motors able to succeed while the likes of Fisker Automotive are struggling???

Also another question:

Interesting point.

Tesla also has dealer networks outside of the United States.............such as this one in France.



Are those company-owned and operated? Or franchise?

Also, what is the company's strategy for export markets in international/overseas territories?

viperabyss

Fisker is not doing well because their car is late, unproven, and plagued with issues. Furthermore, Fisker is run by a guy who is practically an artists, while Tesla is run by a team of engineers.

Secondly, while Tesla is markedly different from any other electric car, and in effect the only solution in that particular market, Fisker is basically an upscaled Volt that's a lot heavier. It lacks the "wow" factor of Tesla.


They are company-owned. AFAIK, no Tesla dealership is owned by other company via franchise. This is why Tesla got into trouble with the traditional dealership here in the US.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...sociation.html

jbjones85

iTrader: (20)

I agree. 20-40K would be ideal but 50K would start to get some "large scale" interest (IMO).

LexFather

This hasn't been stated yet but in the case of the Model S..it is a beautiful sedan. Period. I think that will help sway some people Unlike the Fisker, it has useable space and the trick 7 seat option is well pretty trick.

The huge screen is well huge but it really isn't luxurious looking on the eyes, it just plain sticks out. It is amazing to use though and again, something trick.

With electric cars the main thing is the ability to be abie to charge or simply "remember" to charge and simply adapt to a new way of driving. We are programmed to "fill up" and they make it easy for us to "fill up".

Prices are out of reach for most and options add up quickly but if you don't drive much, for around 60k with credits, you get pretty much the loaded base model with a 140mile range. Air suspension is standard for 2013 models and pricing is up $2500 next year.

Personally the 140 mile range is more than enough for most driving with its 0-60 time in about 6.5-7 seconds. The models with more range are faster which is a great "win/win" but you have to pay for it. Similar to the Lexus hybrid strategy with the GSh.

Volume? The 50-80k midsize sedan market is not as small as you would think. As an estimate
5k 5 series
4k E class
2k GS
1.5k A6
1k M
XF 500 a month
2k others around this class (total)
10 RL

So say around 15k cars a month just in the USA. I'm sure they would be happy with just 5%, 750 cars a month which would put them right around an Infiniti M in sales which is pretty amazing for a new car.

If we compare say a GS 450h to a Tesla its an interesting comparison on paper. The GS is faster until you get to the performance model. The GS has a 600 range to the Tesla 300 or so tops. The GS has the 12.3" screen, Tesla 17". Tesla looks better (IMO) and has 7 seat option. Tesla simply does not need gas whereas the GS being a hybrid needs gas. Lexus offers 7 year, 100k and Tesla an 8 year with an option to buy a battery at TODAY's price. Build quality is with the Lexus and the Lexus has more options. The Tesla offers a glass roof and 21" wheels (19s standard).